(no subject)

[cleolinda]

An interesting point has surfaced over and over again in comments to "Fifteen Minutes"-related posts. Basically, it boils down to the idea that I was clearly keeping this journal for myself and not for other people. At one point, someone said that the first "Fifteen Minutes" was funnier because I'd clearly written it for myself and my friends; someone else today said, "Unless you write your stuff in order to get fans... why on earth do you even care if people post it without giving you credit?" (ETA: I just wanted to step in here and add that I thought these were interesting and valid points, and worth discussing. In the second comment, I read that in context as, "Since you can't stop internet theft anyway, why get so bent out of shape about it unless you write to get fans?")

What surprised me was that in both cases, the commenters assumed I was not intentionally writing for a large audience. See, that's the thing people keep misunderstanding. I'm not keeping this journal only for myself. I was always writing it so that you would read it. I mean, when "VH in 15 Minutes" came out, I had a carefully nurtured friends list of about 150 people; God bless y'all, but "VH in 15 Minutes" was not written for my 150 "closest" friends. It was written in the hopes that it would be funny and people would like it.

That's the thing about all of my writing, and I think it's something you should take into consideration about yours--ask yourself why you keep the journal you do. I know that a lot of my real-life friends keep journals to keep in touch with each other; they post tidbits about their lives, fun things they saw online, etc., but they'd be a little startled if a stranger showed up and started commenting. I think a lot of people keep public journals for social reasons like that, whether they're open to making new online friends or not. But generally, if someone new to this whole "interweb" contraption puts intensely private thoughts out on the internet and is then shocked and dismayed to realize other people are reading it, what do they do? They lock the entry or take down the journal. What I'm saying is, I think a lot of us write for others more than we realize we do.

Maybe the difference between me and a lot of other diarists, then, is that I started this journal for the purposes of writing about my life for other people; that was the entire purpose. I'm not saying I thought my life was so terribly exciting that it deserved that kind of focus, and of course I'm writing for myself as well, but I write in this journal knowing and hoping that other people may want to read it. I aspire to be a professional writer, and it looks like I may be getting my wish. So that's what I do: I write for other people to read.

And you know what? Sometimes I do write only for myself, and for no one else. And you know what I do when I write only for myself? I don't post where you can read it. If it's only for me, it's under a private filter (or on my hard drive, or in a notebook, for that matter). If it's public, or under a semi-public filter, it's intended for other people to read. And I like knowing other people are going to read what I write about myself, because it forces me to be more honest, because I know you guys would call me out on any bullshit (and, on occasion, have). I think it helps me to become a better person, to see myself sometimes how other people may see me (and then to have the option to not give a shit, if that's what I want). Of course I write for myself in the sense that if I didn't honestly love writing, I wouldn't do it in the first place; if you dumped me on a desert island, I'd still look for palm leaves to start scratching on. But I also get a lot of pleasure from knowing that people enjoy my work; feedback also helps me improve it, and I wouldn't post if I didn't want to improve, either. I forget who said this--it may have been Invisible Girl--but while we may write for ourselves, we post and publish for other people, and there's no getting around that.

In a sense, wanting to publish is also a selfish impulse--I want to make enough money from writing that I can make a living without having to work a second job if at all possible, and that way I'll have more time to write. Because it is something I do for myself, and I know I'm not the only one who would like to make writing a vocation. (And actually, I do agree--I think "VH in 15 Minutes" was funnier because it was looser, and more playful, and not so concerned with duplicating a previous success; I'd like to get back to the feel of that one.) But just because you do something for yourself doesn't mean that you can't do it for other people, too--I think that's what a successful author-reader relationship is based on, that balance. Maybe that balance has gotten a little out of whack lately, and I need to tip it back towards the "writing for myself" end.

At the end of the day, what I'm saying is this: I wouldn't be writing this if I weren't doing it for myself. But you wouldn't be reading it if I weren't also writing it at least partly for you.

P.S. Here's the I-Girl entry I was thinking of.

Comments

[kohler.livejournal.com]

Do I smell a friends cut? >.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Hee, no. I think those were perfectly valid points to bring up, actually. I just finally realized that most people probably don't start a public journal as deliberately as I did--I just thought it was something interesting to discuss. :)

[lornyloo.livejournal.com]

and in those last two lines you summarised it perfectly. when people say 'you're blatently writing it funny, or in a certain way so people will read it and comment' I'm like 'yes and?' I write in my jornal because i like to write and i like writing to enertain others. I'm not an amazing writer, and my journal isn't that exciting but i write it for people to read ... and for some strange reason they seem to..

I was thinking this about icon making the other day, when i had just started I used to make lots of icons, and i was crap. No one used my icons but i kept making them, coz i loved making them. Now I'm a lot better, and half the stargate fandom have my icons, i still make them because i like making them, but i'm not going to deny that i love all the comments i now get.

that was a long winded way of saying 'here here' lol

[kohler.livejournal.com]

I love your icon.

[jonnorthwood.livejournal.com]

I've always felt that public journals were for public reading; conversely, I still can't for the life of me understand how anyone can feel that something is theirs for the taking merely because it's publically accessible.

A particular book may well be available at a library for anyone to peruse at no charge; however, this does not mean that anyone should feel free to copy from and/or plagiarize the entire work simply because 'anyone could read it already'.

Bah. I loathe people on occasion most of the time.

At any rate, I agree with your summation, and I hope you continue to make your 15M works available. I, for one, would be more than willing to pick up whatever writing you did: it's delightful.

ok

[jai-eu-froid.livejournal.com]

I enjoy reading your journal a lot....I guess it is almost....Inspirational!

I have always wanted to be an author since I first picked up the boxcar children from my big brothers room when i was five years old.

but since I am horrible at grammar (on-line because I am lame) and I am way too afraid of what people are going to think of me when I write down MY thoughts somewhere in a place where someone can find it (I can't even write in a notebook) I don't write down any ideas I have.

If you read my live journal you know that it is all a bunch of "o yeah my day was fun maybe some pics lol heather is a slut *jk*" I really don't care about writing that stuff at all, nor do I think anyone wants to read it anyway!

But it allows me to read everyone else's thoughts because I am a hypocrite *yes I think it is appropriate to say because I am saying I don't want others to read my thoughts but I love to observe and read others*


maybe I should just stick to psychiatry where I just observe people, but unfortunately I am afraid to say anything

Anyway, I like your journal because you are so not afraid of what others think in my honest opinion.

An authors work will always be swayed by their fans somehow; and if they are influencing you too much, you will come to a point where you will realize what it is doing to you and then stop caring which will allow you to write the best stuff ever!

good luck with your future in writing, and I am excited to see what you come up with!

Re: ok

[elbell137.livejournal.com]

I don't think you understand how relieved I am that you spelled "grammar" properly. I'm no grammar whore, but a little piece of me dies when people are talking about grammar and spell it absolutely horrifically wrong.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I started the journal with the thought that it would be something amusing for my fans (once I acquired some) to read after they read my book and while they waited for the next one. I was going to link it from my website.

But then I started actually writing in the journal way before my book came out, because it seemed like a fun new toy, and now I still don't have a website but I have a bunch of people reading my journal, and they're a cool set of people. So I started mine as a sort of PR device, and it mutated into a friendly social thing.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I'm actually surprised by how many writers keep blogs and online journals--Neil Gaiman's is pretty famous, but Dave Barry also has one, and I've heard that Pamela Dean and Poppy Z. Brite have LiveJournals. I think it'll become more and more common as--well, as the LiveJournal generation grows up and starts publishing.

[fanofall.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly. I was totally amazed when that poster wrote "why do you care if you put it out there anyway?" I mean, are you SERIOUS with that?

But I think I may have been more tripped out by the fact that she was expecting me to have been harshing on you and I wasn't and that pissed her off. That was... a little surreal.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I noticed that... that was kind of odd. I mean, on one hand, I laughed when s/he said that, because it was like, "Aww, I was hoping you were snarking!" And then I thought about it, and it was like, "Wait a minute, you were hoping that fanofall was 'mocking' me? What?"

[illmantrim.livejournal.com]

bravo. You said here what I have said several times and I aplaud you for putting it down in such well written words.

[pygmymetal.livejournal.com]

"And you know what? Sometimes I do write only for myself, and for no one else. And you know what I do when I write only for myself? I don't post where you can read it."

Bingo.

;) Sometimes people are so freakin dense. They try to justify something by putting the blame on the victim. Assbonnets indeed. ;)

[rexmanning.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow, I wrote a whole entry about this after reading the I-Girl entry. Obviously my journal is a whole 'nother can of worms, I don't intend it for mass public consumption and I would be seriously weirded out if more than, say, 100 people were reading it, but it's something that I don't know that many people who have online journals these days think about, because it's become such a mainstream phenomenon.

I try to be funny, and interesting, my journal is good practice for learning to write for an audience, I don't know that it's taught me to be a better writer, but I've become a much better observer in the time since I've had it, if that makes sense.

I deleted my entry, because it was really self-indulgent, but I'm sure you get hassled, which is sort of insane. I guess the line between someone who just fools around on their little website, or to have a reason to write every day, and someone who is taking it seriously and can get a book deal out of it (!!!) is thin (I blame pamie.com)

[elbell137.livejournal.com]

Rex Manning! Icon <3

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

"Unless you write your stuff in order to get fans... why on earth do you even care if people post it without giving you credit?"

Ooookaaay, did I miss the memo or sign that said it's okay to take credit for someone else's work?

What. An. Asshat.

I don't think it's about whether you're writing for yourself or for others, it's about respecting another person's work and realizing that just because it's posted on the internet that doesn't mean you should steal it and take credit for it.

[jai-eu-froid.livejournal.com]

asshat is such a great word

[kvschwartz.livejournal.com]

People who post other people's stuff without crediting should be publicly flogged. Upside down. In embarrassing granny underpants.

[kohler.livejournal.com]

I like the way you think.

[highlystrung.livejournal.com]

What can I say but: Bravo. Once again exactly expressed. :)

Amen, sister!

[elbiesee.livejournal.com]

Okay, I read the post from the asshat (ah, what a word! It's now ingrained in my real-life lexicon...) that basically blamed you for some other asshat (wonder if they're related...) stealing your work. It was, in essence, asking a rape victim what she was wearing and what dark alley she was walking down.

Yes, you've made yourself mildly vunerable to some uncreative hickdeads using your stuff as their own. *ahem* IT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!!! Just because they 'can' doesn't mean they should. (Are you listening, Bill Clinton?!?)

And let me just say that if you ceased to do what you do, there would be a void in my life that would be very hard to fill. Now that I've scared you beyond belief...

If it makes you feel better, nobody reads my blog...

Re: Amen, sister!

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know that I'd make that kind of comparison, plagiarism to rape and all that. All I know is, it doesn't really matter why I'm keeping a journal or putting my writing on the internet--private or public, it shouldn't be taken, even though, yeah, it's inevitable that someone probably will. In fact, I've seen several cases of people stealing other people's personal journal entries and pretending to be that person--why? I have no idea. All I know is, it happens regardless of the writer's intent to "get fans" or not.

[raanve]

I know other people have responded to this, but I just had to throw in my 2¢...

someone else today said, "Unless you write your stuff in order to get fans... why on earth do you even care if people post it without giving you credit?"

Excuse me?! This is the most ridiculous and misguided comment I think I've heard in a long time, and that's saying something. So basically this person thinks that it's okay to steal, unless you know that the person you're stealing from is creating "in order to get fans"?

Not that anyone else reading your journal/comments needs a reminder, but IT IS NEVER OKAY TO STEAL SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK. It is never ok to post someone else's words/art/music as your own, or without crediting the creator, or getting their permission to do so. The creator does not need to do anything special in order to "get it copyrighted" -- the minute the creator move their idea from their brain into the world, it IS copyrighted. This is US law (I can't speak for other countries).

That someone would think to say this to you -- not only approving of someone else's theft of your work, but, in some respects, demeaning your creativity as something you do solely to get attention from others -- reveals something that is rather not pretty about that person.

I'm sorry you're going through this whole issue, and yeah, you could take it as a sign of your popularity and talent (and know that everyone out there who creates and has a following for creating faces down these same issues), but I still find it appalling that people don't understand that this whole plagiarism issue is NOT OKAY, EVER, under any circumstances.

Maybe I only feel so strongly about it because I'm a writer, too. Anyway, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing, and I'm glad to be able to read it. And I'm glad I'm on your friends list, too, even though that's majorly silly. ;)

- jess

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks. Actually, I think the poor guy (guy? girl?)'s statement was sort of misunderstood--I felt what he was saying was more like, "Why get bent out of shape about theft, which is inevitable, unless you're trying to get fans?" I mean, I see a valid point in there. (Although, actually, I would think that someone who was writing privately would be MORE upset about theft, because they hadn't expected tons of other people to see the piece.) What surprised me was that he assumed I wasn't. Which led to the whole entry about writing for other people as well as oneself.

A few points

[chenpion.livejournal.com]

Been busy lately, so I haven't been commenting as much as I used to. In case I didn't get around to it earlier... congratulations on being offered a book/to be published/etc. Always good to see a fellow writer/LJer get ahead in the world!

Having gotten that out the way...

I can't even remember when, why or how, but I was reading your journal before "VH in 15M." We bumped into each other on some community or another, saw the others' journal, and Friended up.

As such, -I- feel comfortable in saying that you write differently now than you did back then. You've become more of a... prima donna, to a certain extent. Your focus of late seems to be on thieves rather than writing. "Oh, another thief! Oh, another site that's been stealing my work!" Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. True, you do have the publishing considerations to bear in mind, but do you really need to start up a witch hunt every time something new comes up?

I enjoy your writing. I enjoy your "A day in the life of Cleolinda" type entries. I tend to ignore the ones where the lines blur, though.

One other thing. The other day, how someone was flaming you regarding "Who is that (censored) and that other (censored)?" I actually agree with that to a point -- I have no idea who "The Lovely Emily" is, nor do I care. Most reviewers don't write about their friends and/or who they go with. Even if they did, it's only in the beginning of the review "Yesterday, because it was my son's birthday, I took him to watch Spider-Man 2," they don't put in comments like "Then my son cheered when Dr. Octopus jumped off the roof!"

Personally, I think that you'd have to take it out when you put your book together. ON THE OTHER HAND, it's elements like that which make the first work FOR ME, because I get some of the little 'in' jokes, and I know a little more about you than the casual reader.

By the way. The link from your first paragraph to the second? It really doesn't work. Who is misunderstanding what? Heck, the first few sentences of the first paragraph don't work either.

The point I was making originally by saying that VH in 15M is to remind you not to let the fame get to your head. Not to try, as you've correctly pointed out, to try and capture lightning in a bottle... to 'sell out,' as it were. As more and more people come in and cheer you on "Yay! Yet another GREAT Min15M!" the more you MAY start to think that they're all as great as they were. When... well, I don't know. What's your most popular Min15M? The only one that all my friends know is the VH and Troy ones. Not that many know about the rest.

That's something to think about. Not very pleasant, sure, but still, something.

Re: A few points

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Well, that's why I tried to make it clear in the entry that I thought the points brought up were interesting and valid and worth discussing, not something I was complaining about (which it looks like people didn't quite grasp...).

And yeah, I myself got sick of all the plagiarism melodrama. I don't know if you read my most recent entry on it, but I basically decided to get the hell over it and let it go, because it wasn't worth it. I do think it'll be interesting to come back in a year and read over the entries where I freak out, just in the sense that it captures what I was like and what I was doing at that time. I sort of see this as a record of what happens when someone's work becomes popular, and the (sometimes stupid) ways I handle it.

The thing I disagreed with you about, by the way, was not that my writing had changed--I think you were right, it had, and I had gotten more desperate to please. I had just thought it was funny when you said that VH was better because I'd written it for myself and close friends, when that was never really the purpose of my journal anyway, and the "why worry about it unless you want fans?" remark reminded me of that today. No big.

And yeah, the self-insertion Cleo/Emily thing is a problem. The reason I use it is not because I actually think anyone cares about us; it's a way of setting up certain jokes (which I may need to stop using). Sort of like using "AUDIENCE" as well, although that's more universal and therefore may not have that problem. But then, the entries currently online weren't written with a book in mind, and they're not going into the book anyway. There are a lot of things I'll probably have to do differently for general consumption.

Oh, and by the way--the Harry Potter 15M is far and away the most popular, but that may be because HP has a huge and energetic fandom. After that, Troy is the most popular. I still get comments on the others, though--had a bigger reaction to the Dracula one, which was supposed to be pretty low-key, than I expected.

[edda.livejournal.com]

Between you and Invinciblegirl all I can do is agree and applaud. I'd elaborate further, but I'm on my parents' ancient Dellosaurus with AOL (teh suck) which keeps threatening to lumber back into the tar pits and crash, dammit. But great entry.

*Dellosaurus lurches away, bearing screaming and swearing edda with it*

[misshallelujah.livejournal.com]

I am so with you. I don't write for myself; I write for an audience, I spend hours crafting out a single journal entry because I hope that people will read it, and like it, and keep coming back for more.

For me, that's the magic of writing-- entertaining and inspiring people. It makes me feel good, it makes them feel good, happy buzzy feelings all around, what's not to like?

[daiseechain.livejournal.com]

while we may write for ourselves, we post and publish for other people, and there's no getting around that.

Yes! Yes! Why do so many people have difficulty understanding that?

I do think though, that a lot of people just dont't *get* how many people read the stuff they post online. They somehow think that because they only intend their nearest and dearest to read it, that only those people will. Frightening numbers of people have no idea how far their posts travel, how many people inadvertently trip over them on the way to somewhere else, and exactly how much information can be gleaned about you from your public posts wherever you post those comments. They extrapolate, from their lack of understanding of such things, that because few people read their journals, few people will be reading yours too, that somehow CleoLinda's readers are a small exclusive club, and therefore your posts are only for us.

Excellent post. Excellent points.

[jaydarkson.livejournal.com]

I totally understand what you're saying... my journal originally was to help me with my writer's block. I figured if I could get at least things that happened in my daily life written down, it would help me get the ideas for what I want to write also written down... since then, it's also evolved into a journal for my friends and to meet new people

I think what caused me to lock up my journal and make it friends only was the fact people would make rude comments or talk crap under anonymous posts... Also too many people that I knew in person but weren't my friends had found my journal and I didn't like them having access to my life like that... rather than making filters I just locked everybody out that wasn't on my list and allowed people to comment to be added... The funny thing is I think I would prefer having a complete stranger that lived across country read my journal than most of the people I know in person...

[seraphina-pyra.livejournal.com]

Well said. It's really got me thinking.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

The truly sad thing as that you feel you have to justify your wish to keep your work your own. The internet has unfortunately led to a growing belief that anything and everything is for the taking, just because we can. They have a simple misunderstanding of COPYRIGHT. If you put pen to paper, it's yours, and they can't do shit with it except brief quotes, properly attributed.

It's yours. You don't have to be writing for any particular purpose to claim it. And the fact that you have a book contract for it makes it a valuable product worth X dollars, which means it's actual THEFT for them to take it.

(And it's damn funny. Count me in for a preordered copy.)

[madusa.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY! daiseechain
I don't remember who it was who said 'I write to be read'. Any body/piece of work,not matter how big/small,in my honest opinion ,is always written so that others can read it, think about it,comment on it and get inspired by it.It perplexes me when I come across comments and journals which say how shocked they were when they found totally random people reading their journal.
I thought I would start an LJ so that I would overcome my fear of not being able to express myself and that it would enable me to achieve a certain level of coherence in my writing.I've been lurking around,reading a couple of LJ s since February but have never really posted anything for the fear of inciting arguements with others.I'm very thin skinned ,almost to the point of translucence :p.One jab and I bleed.
*scuttles off into her corner like Gollum*

[http://users.livejournal.com/belladonna_/]

Hiya. This seemed as good a post as any to leave a comment on... I became aware of your LJ because of Troy in 15 Minutes, but I wanted to add you... I like your writing, and strangely, I'm from Alabama. Mobile, actually. Though I don't live there anymore. Long story. My journal is f/o, so I figured I'd go on and add you so you could check it out and see if you wanted to friend me back. Ta!

[ladyofrivendell.livejournal.com]

And I think you're brilliant and am SO glad you do this for us.

*squees in admiration*