(no subject)

[cleolinda]

I can't stop listening to the V for Vendetta soundtrack at this point, which makes this the second Dario Marianelli score in a row that I've gotten hooked on. I'm even to the point in my predictably cyclical obsessions where I would like to listen to something else, maybe some nice Garbage or at least something with guitars and maybe even some words, but I can't, because the soundtrack has eaten my soul.

Speaking of VFV, I'm fairly disgusted with myself at the moment. I think over the course of all the comments I've gotten in the last few days, I've had exactly two and a half negative ones--one wasn't even about the writing, but rather my hidden antitheft text, but I figure you'd only get mad about that if you were, you know, actually trying to steal and repost the entire thing. One really was on the level of "Why the hell do you people think this is so great?" And the half was, "It's good, but not her best." And both are fair comments. And I know how fortunate I am to get such positive feedback (there's got to be other negative comments out there; they're just not where I can see them). I'm disgusted, you see, because this is how "tons of good feedback and one pissy comment" register in my brain:

And I do this all the time. I get two bad book reviews in magazines and I'm still not over them--intellectually I am, because I can see either how this statement here made a good point and I could learn from it, or that statement there just seemed to be kind of mean and useless for my own purposes. But there's some part of my lizard hindbrain that still cringes in horror every time I think of Total Film. And I was hoping that posting V/15M would boost my confidence and I could get back to work on material for a second book, but two and a half negative comments and I'm curled up all fetal in a corner again, because all I can see now when I look at my work is, "You know, this is really pretty pedestrian, and overlong to boot."

I want to clarify here that the point of this entry is not to beg for validation. Everyone was so enthusiastic over on the original entry and I really appreciate that; I'm not asking you to hold my hand and tell me all over again. The reason I'm telling you all this is that I know I'm not the only writer who goes through this; this is more about wanting to show you the process I'm going through, and what I'm trying to do about it. So all this morning, I've been trying to focus on a few key ideas:

1) I enjoyed the writing, and I accomplished something just by finishing it. (And in my case, particularly so, because I have a hard time finishing anything.) Bad reviews can't take away my own pleasure in working.

2) Other people enjoyed it. Specifically, the people I wrote it for, the people with a similar sense of humor, the same cultural demographic (somewhat youngish, fannish, nerdish) as me, the people who have supported me for the last two years.

3) No one will ever write anything that everyone, to a man, woman, and child, will like.

4) I should take what I can from negative comments--like, I do understand that the most frequent criticism is, "She goes on too long," and therefore this is an actual problem I have, and I know it, and I try to work on that every time I start something new. But once I've taken what I can use from it, I need to stop intellectually trying to justify or pick apart the comment and just put it away. Because if I'm happy with the piece, and a majority of other people are happy with it, there's nothing else to do, really. I don't have to justify its existence or mine.

If I start getting a lot of criticism, yes, that means something has probably gone wrong, and I need to figure out what and fix it. But I have got to quit psyching myself out by letting negative comments loom so large in my brain. Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if they're right. Maybe I'm the worst writer in the world and I'm completely overrated and my work is, objectively, crap. But if it makes me happy and it makes other people happy, it's worth something. That's the mantra I'm pulling out of this. People who think I'm a crap writer can be completely right, and it still doesn't matter, because I still love writing and while I should always try to be better--everyone should--I can't hide under my bed just because not everyone will like it. Because they won't. Because it doesn't work that way. If you're determined to write, there's a point at which you need to listen to criticism--but there's a point at which you have to close your eyes and move on.

And I'm not saying, "I, Cleo alone, should remember these things." I'm saying I should, and you should, and anyone who loves writing should, and that's why I'm telling you this. Because I can't be the only writer who feels such deep, crippling fear that she can't even open Word in the morning.

Comments

[metonymy.livejournal.com]

Well said, and a very positive way to think about it (although I personally just say "Fuck 'em all" to negative and non-constructive comments).

Also, I think you should call it V/XVM... except then it's V in 1,985 minutes. Oops. Not such a brilliant idea after all!

[christigilly.livejournal.com]

Teehee. Icon love!

[piratesorka.livejournal.com]

I made a mistake once as a teacher when I let my senior class students fill out a questionaire about my class. All were lovely except one that was very lukewarm and the other that out and out called me a bitch and such.

Do I remember the good ones? Oh nooooo, not a bit. It was the bad one that I stewed over the most.

This is why I laugh about the idea of giving anything but positive feedback to a fic writer. No body really wants a critic. Once, over one of my crackfic ( YES, it was CRACKFIC...thats what you get with talking private parts of two men!) Someone sent me a comment that I was totally unrealistic. *headdesks*
Some celebrities never read their reviews, its too awful if its negative. So I guess this whole feedback thing is a crapshoot overall.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm a big supporter of constructive criticism in the rewrite phase, because you actually have a shot at being able to improve the work at that point. It's when the thing is finished and done and on the shelves that I'm starting to realize it's pointless, because there's nothing I can really do about it by then. And while I could, technically, go back and change things in an online piece, I tend to think of it as "on the shelf" for better or worse at that point.

[majormeg7.livejournal.com]

I'm part of a writing workshop for my senior thesis and even though I know all the people there really well, and even when the negative feedback I recieve is helpful and not remotely mean, I still feel like going home and eating a pint of swirly ice cream to comfort myself. So yeah, you aren't the only one who feels this way. Writing is part of you ao it is hard to separate a criticism of writing from a criticism of you. (you in this case being the general you...not the YOU CLEOLINDA JONES YOU)

On the upside, now that I've begun to equate bad feedback with eating a pint of swirly ice cream, bad feedback is starting to look good.

[raanve]

Because I can't be the only writer who feels such deep, crippling fear that she can't even open Word in the morning.

You aren't.

Thanks for this.

[sigma7.livejournal.com]

You're a thoughtful, responsive, conscientious artist. Goes with the territory. And you're willing to listen to feedback and you're aware of the virtue of becoming a better writer. Problem is, on the World Wide Intarwub(s), you're going to get a lot of feedback that doesn't even approach construction, especially given your raised profile. You've achieved something, which means people will want to knock you down. It's social physics.

You can be open to the constructive criticism, but the noise -- and it is just noise -- is going to sting. But what you've got to give is yours and yours alone, and the world's a poorer place without it. And I think you know that.

And if I had a few extra bucks floating around the place, I'd buy you this (http://syndicated.livejournal.com/warrenelliscom/525622.html).

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Dude, I am so seriously saving up for that. The worst part is, Jess asked me to tell him what I thought about it (after I told him what a huge fangirl of his site[s] I am), and I haven't been able to buy it yet.

[allthelivesofme.livejournal.com]

Because I can't be the only writer who feels such deep, crippling fear that she can't even open Word in the morning.

You're definitely not. I've been battling writer's block off-and-on for about a month now. It always gets worse right after another rejection slip . . . because however much I know all it means is, "not right for us, sorry, better luck with someone else", some part of me keeps picturing someone looking over the manuscript, rolling his/her eyes, and throwing it away.

The worst part of me is the fragment that thinks he/she is right to do so.

And I won't even get into how "Well, we've got enough material certainly, let's take one series and see what self-publishing has to offer" turns into "You do know that self-publishing is the only thing you'll ever be able to do, because no one with half a brain would buy this stuff?" when I reach a bad spot.

Makes me wonder if 'insecure' is on the Main Trait Checklist of being a writer or something. ;-)

[loramir.livejournal.com]

In response to your first paragraph, which caught my eye on my friends page...

Isn't fun to be so obsessed with something that you actually start wishing you weren't? I watched Walk the Line a week ago, and have listened to nothing but the OST or Johnny Cash ever since and practically thought of nothing else. I can't even explain why I loved it so much! Your entry just caught my eye because I totally sympathize. Walk the Line has eaten my soul.

I think everyone's that way about praise and criticism. Praise and positive feedback seems to run together, while every individual negative response, even if it's a legitimate complaint sticks in your mind and harasses you for eons.

[amberdulen.livejournal.com]

overlong to boot

Funnily enough, I thought this did a much better job of reining in the length.

Cheers!

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

1. Well, I worked on trying to skip anything that someone who had not seen the movie would not absolutely need to know to understand what was happening.

2. Oh... so the others *were* too long. (Sorry! It's like when someone says you look great, have you lost weight, and your immediate reaction is, "Oh, so I WAS a giant fat-ass before. Just checking." The complimenter can't win, I swear. ; )

[leucocrystal]

Oh man, that has to be the best graphical representation of how most artist's take criticism -- myself included.  It's funny, because I'm almost a stickler for punishment in that regard; I say I'd like to receive some criticism, rather than always hearing "Ooh, that picture is so PRETTY!" ("At least some new adjectives would be nice," the more selfish part of me is more likely to say), but when I do, I almost always let it affect me negatively.

I don't know whether it's just the curse of being the creator of something that anyone other than yourself sees or reads, but it seems to be.  But I think it's still for the best, even if you do end up beating yourself up over it, as I tend to do.  Why?  Well, I don't know if it's the same for you, but for me and with my artwork, I am never as happy with the sketches that no one sees -- even if I receive criticism (and sometimes not the friendliest criticism -- I was bashed pretty horribly on my own message board several times by the same guy, about the webcomic I used to draw and host), I'm much prouder of the work I have that other people can enjoy.  ...Does that even make sense?  I hope so.  My point in short:  Chin up!  If anything, it motivates you (whether you realize it or not) to work harder next time. :)

P.S.  ZOMG I am totally in love with the V For Vendetta soundtrack, too.  How beautiful are "Valerie" and "Evey Reborn"?  GUH.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Okay, you picked exactly the other two songs on my playlist. It's those two and the "Dominoes" one, completely. And I love the Knives/Bullets/Cannons one too, and I love that the 1812 Overture is at the end, but the other three songs have a more consistent mood by themselves.

You might want to look into Marianelli's Pride & Prejudice soundtrack--"Your Hands Are Cold" is gorgeous.

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

Ah, that graphic is far too familiar. :p I'm in an MA program for teachers of ESL, and one thing I've learned when we do practice teaching with peer reviews is that SOME PEOPLE ARE ON CRACK. There's always a couple reviews that are just totally out of left field and even recommend doing things I actually DID in the teaching session, which is one of the hints that they weren't really reviewing me, just being randomly negative. assaultdoor, my husband, teaches at Berkeley and regularly gets a couple of end-of-semester assessments that say obviously untrue things like "teacher totally unavailable for help" (the segment other students rate him the highest on since he has extra office hours, office hours on demand, and gives very speedy e-mail help). It's easier to dismiss these things when they have obviously false content like that, but still, a lot of the ones that appear believable are also coming from the same mystifying place of "Must be negative!" --which can be ultra-painful when combined with the teacher/writer/performer/etc.'s personality trait of "Must be perfect!"

So anyway, repeat after me: SOME PEOPLE ARE ON CRACK! *g*

m_cat's spoof review of V is here, btw, if you want to read someone else's attempt to be funny: http://m-cat.livejournal.com/100995.html

I laughed out loud multiple times reading yours, btw, and I'm still quoting it. :)

[skyblade.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is, I remember way back when you posted on the "Rate Me Community", and some folks were tearing you apart. It seemed like you tried very hard to be a good sport. Typical creative type insecurities aside, I wonder if this comes from the internet culture...the Fametracker mentality, and whatnot, where whatever's popular must therefore not be very good. So, what you might be dealing with is not the tiny sting that you're not universally praised, but rather the fear (not realization, fear) that you're the case of one of those undeserved successes. I'm not suggesting that's true at all, simply trying to diagnose your self-doubts...doubts I might have if I ever achieved an unqualified level of success.

Me? I take criticism pretty well because I'm that self-loathing. It's compliments that make me paranoid.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. I mean, who's churlish enough to be mad that not 100% of everyone loves them? It's more me being afraid that the negative ones are right. Which is why I had to go, you know, it doesn't matter if they are, particularly in terms of writing humor. It's one thing if I want to write novels that will someday be part of the literary canon, and being afraid that people like you now but eventually they'll wake up and realize that you're crap. But in terms of making people laugh? You pretty much have to be satisfied with a decent majority.

[angelene.livejournal.com]

The reason I'm telling you all this is that I know I'm not the only writer who goes through this


word.

this might be my idea and only that, but I also think that there are different types of negative (as well as positive, of course, and perhaps unfortunately so?) feedback, and some of them are more deserving of consideration than others.

the difference between negative and positive criticism is, I believe, that positive can... get away with non being very constructive, because, like you said, 'if it made people happy, then it's worth something'; whereas negative criticism... must be constructive -- otherwise it is useless, and somewhat worthless.

what does, for instance, a 'why the hell do you people think this is so great?' tell about your work? that the person who typed the comment didn't find it particularly great, okay... but beyond their own personal likings... does it tell you something about 'what's (supposedly) wrong and/or revisable' in your work, still according to their impression? um... no. see, a negative criticism cannot be a one-liner. otherwise... it makes little sense. no matter HOW AWFULLY HARD IT DOES STRIKE. (your Graphical Brain Representation is so realistic it is scary).


I'm not sure I'm making any sense, but I hope so.

either way, thanks for posting this. :)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

No, I know what you mean. I didn't want to be too specific about the comment, but I've gone and frozen it now so people can't dogpile on it, and basically it said that the parody was "overlong and barely funny," or something along that line. I think "paraphrase of the whole movie" was involved as well. And I can look at that and go, you know, I actually was really worried that it was a bit bland and definitely too long, but there was a point where I had done as much as I could and had to set the thing free into the wild. The part that stung was the indignant tone, you know?

"You know, you could cut [this entire chunk] out and lose nothing" might sting a little bit, but it would also tell me something constructive.

[thynk2much.livejournal.com]

Anne Lamott, in her fantastic book on writing Bird by Bird, talks about the standard writer mentality as like two radio stations blaring in your ears: one side playing K-BRILL and the other playing K-F*CKD.

You know, I don't know that you'd want to give so much weight to this - I should take what I can from negative comments--like, I do understand that the most frequent criticism is, "She goes on too long," and therefore this is an actual problem I have, and I know it, and I try to work on that every time I start something new. - because you're basically getting comments from random Internet strangers whose judgment is or isn't solid. I think it might be more worth listening to constructive criticism from sources you know and trust, so that you can continue to follow your inner voice because that's what makes you so fantastic, that's what brings us back to read here again and again. Not your response to popular opinion. Just a thought...... cause (1) I think you're fantastic and (2) I know how you're feeling.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks. Well, what I struggle with is that one of my goals is to write something that people who have not seen the movie can follow. Otherwise, you're limiting your audience, and tons of people say, "And now I really want to see the movie!" What you've then done is created a situation where you *can't* leave things out, or the storyline makes no sense. I could have left out just about every scene with Finch, as much as I liked him in the movie, and just focused on V and Evey and been perfectly content, but you need Finch for the actual mystery plot. You can get away with leaving out half of, say, Van Helsing, because that one doesn't make sense no matter what you keep in or leave out. ; )

[lesamalie.livejournal.com]

I had a staged reading of one of my plays the other week during Story Week, which is a big thing at my school and Chicago for writers, and I totally spazzed when I just got polite applause at the end. I don't know what I expected. I didn't even like how it was done but still...they didn't laugh where I wanted them too and they didn't seem to enjoy it as much as I did or rather as much as they were suppose to enjoy it.

But actually I talked to many of them later, and they liked it. Most everyone in fact and it got me another playwrighting gig. The worst moment was when someone told me that I needed to "finish it" but I thought I already had done that. But now I have something to work on and curse and slave over.

And I don't really know where I'm going with this other than, I get ya, Cleo.

PS I can't wait to go see V for Vendetta so I can read your m15m

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

You know, I hate that--I've had readings (not of Fifteen Minutes--of pieces you could actually read out loud) where people were very quiet, and only afterwards did I find out they liked it. Sometimes crowds are just quiet, and no one wants to make any noise because no one else is, and it's just the way it goes.

[pygmymetal.livejournal.com]

Refresh my aging brain - were you reviewed in Empire? As I think that's a way better UK mag than TF.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I was! And I think it is too, which is why I was counting on getting a better review there, and then they BOTH gave me bad reviews.

[wolflady26.livejournal.com]

You know, another reason why some people might be over critical is that they love your previous work so much that they get bitterly disappointed if they don't love the new one just as much. It's a weird sort of backhanded compliment.

Think about it - if some yahoo on LJ posted something like your VFV summary, do you think he or she would get a lot of negative criticism? In the same way, if your all-time favorite writer writes something average, you probably think the book is awful, whereas if someone you'd never heard of before had written it, you might see the glimmer of talent shining through and think it was ok.

Because I can't be the only writer who feels such deep, crippling fear that she can't even open Word in the morning.

No, no you're not. I feel the same way far too often, and most of the time, it's not even motivated by a critic outside of my own head.

[tifaria.livejournal.com]

My painting professor said something to me last semester that I think is very valuable advice, and while I don't remember the exact wording, it was basically this: "Whatever your critics tell you to stop doing, do a thousand more of." He was referring to painting, of course, but I think this can apply to writing as well. He was jumped on by critics for years to stop his landscape painting (which are not traditional landscapes, but are rather haunting and stylized), stop oil painting, and to return to the abstract acrylic paintings he began with. But you know what? He kept oil painting, and he kept at it to the point where he now makes up to thirty thousand dollars a painting and laughs at the people who told him to stop all those years ago.

So keep writing! :) You're a talented, capable writer and nothing is going to change that.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Huh... that's completely counterintuitive and yet... strangely empowering.

(Aww, thanks.)

[lotusbiosm.livejournal.com]

Cleo, can we trade problems? You go on too long (you say, I don't believe you), I don't go on long enough. It's so hard for me to hit page miminums.
And I know exactly how you feel about negative comments. I can have compliments for weeks, but one criticism, and boom, I'm done. Even if it's completely non-personal and true.
And my mother has taught for onver 30 years. Every time she gets negative feedback on course reviews (even when they're clearly from terrible students who would give a bad review to anyone who wanted them to learn anything), she feels bad.
I wish I knew how not to do it...

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Well, a lot of times in papers I don't go long enough, because I manage to say exactly what I want to say and I'm done... three pages early. I think what contributes to my going overlong, though, is a very... conversational voice? Because it lends itself to rambling, basically.

[highlystrung.livejournal.com]

Everyone else has left these really deep comments and I want to leave a deep comment I really do but all that's going through my head is damn I want to read V/15m. (And I know I've read the comic but it's not the same.)

As someone who always wants deep, detailed, thought out feedback, and feels miserable when I get a 'it's not your best work' (which is both a completely valueless statement and a neat summation of modern perceptions of the art world) I can only say I share the trauma. You've got a healthy grip of it though. And I will say, it's funny how even the greatest sense of bathos is overcome by the drive to create.

Oh. And the graphic? Priceless. ^^

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Hee, thanks. If you can get out and see the movie, do--just try to go easy on it, since you *have* read the comic already. I haven't read the comic yet (on purpose, for that reason), and I really enjoyed it.

[kookaburra1701.livejournal.com]

Here's something I think you'd enjoy- Google's AFD joke: http://www.google.com/romance/index.html

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I saw that this morning! The tour is PRICELESS.

[kvschwartz.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

It's OK to feel wounded. It helps to be tough-skinned if you're going into the arts, but NOT being tough-skinned doesn't make you any LESS of a writer.

Feel better!

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks. I am remarkably thin-skinned--well, actually, selectively thin-skinned, because if I'm in the drafting/rewriting phase, I handle criticism pretty well. I guess, ultimately, the comments that sting the most are the ones that address the things we're insecure about, which is why "UR A FAG" is nastier but doesn't bother me, because it's totally nonsensical, but "This is overlong and barely funny" does.

[christigilly.livejournal.com]

Since you don't want the whole "Those people suck, you rock. They're stupid, you're brilliant" thing (even though it's true), I'll just say this:

Just about everyone's brain works like that, unfortunately. It's easy to remember the bad comments, but hard to remember the good - or, rather, overpower the bad with the good.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Well, not that I don't appreciate the sentiment; I just think that blatant emo "ZOMG VALIDATE ME" entries suck. : )

[lady-ravenlocke.livejournal.com]

Because I can't be the only writer who feels such deep, crippling fear that she can't even open Word in the morning.

You totally aren't the only one. I've been dealing with this for quite awhile now. I'm still trying to work through it. Thank you for giving this aspiring writer hope.

[lucky-guess.livejournal.com]

As someone that knows how the human brain works... kinda... (I'm a psychologist), I can assure you that this is exactly the way that we work. We pick out the negative stuff, remember it more, and weight it heavier and more important than the positive stuff. That, and if there is less of anything it tends to stick out a little more to us -- sort of the whole "one of these things is not like the other" deal.

So, in other words, it's perfectly ok to feel this way.

*pats*

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Hee, thanks. : )

[theferrett.livejournal.com]

Like I've said to others, if there are people who hate Shakespeare, what hope do you have? You cannot write well enough to please everybody. Period.

So fuck 'em. I liked it. Though I loved your graphical representation.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

if there are people who hate Shakespeare, what hope do you have?

Dude, exactly. I don't even know if it's a matter of writing well enough--some book might objectively be the best ever written in the history of humankind and there would still be *someone* who hated it. People are just wired so many different ways, I guess is what I'm trying to get myself to believe. And in the vein of what you're saying, I just talked to three people who don't like chocolate this last week. If chocolate doesn't have a 100% approval rating, what hope can we mortals have?