cleolinda: (Default)
[personal profile] cleolinda
As a follow-up to the Sherlock Holmes movie discussion entry, I feel like I should clarify that I don't actually think Holmes and Watson were doing it although I can absolutely see why you might. (And the movie might agree with you. Commenters pointed out that there were lines from Irene in the trailer ("They've been flirting for hours" and "Will you two just kiss and make up?") that got cut from the movie, as well as a line in the original script where Mary tells Holmes that Watson's "heart is generous. He has room for both of us." Also, Robert Downey Jr. apparently pissed off Doyle's estate by suggesting that Holmes might be "a very butch homosexual.") I am simply saying that they are in love, love, looooooove. It is not for me to specify the nature of that love; I can only point to the GIGANTIC BLATANT IMMENSITY of it.

(I should also note that the words "Satan," "Satanic," and "devil" are never mentioned in the movie, as far as I remember. [Spoilers?] The secret society in the movie seems to resemble the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn a lot, and there's some arcane (and historically inspired) ooga-booga to it, but the implication is that it's not evil per se; it's Lord Blackwood who wants to pervert its purpose. I wasn't terribly clear about that, and after I thought about it, I realized that I might not have even described Blackwood's activities accurately, either--but the movie opening with an attempted human sacrifice made me go, "Oh, Hollywood Satanism, sure." So that's where that came from.)

I also spent a good bit of yesterday afternoon rereading the first two Holmes novels, A Study in Scarlet and The Sign of the Four. The former is interesting because it shows you how Holmes and Watson meet, but while the character of Sherlock Holmes is pretty fully realized from the first page, he's initially written as being a bit naive about anything not helpful to detecting, such as, you know, the fact that the sun is the center of the solar system (I am not making this up). I think Doyle eventually realized that this didn't make sense, because everything is potentially helpful to detecting, and so by the second novel (the stories didn't appear until afterward), Holmes is far better read and knowledgeable about life in general. If you really want a classic, full-blown Holmes adventure, I would recommend that second novel. It doesn't stop dead in the middle for a huge third-person account of someone else's lovelorn Mormon revenge drama, of all things (special guest appearance by Evil Brigham Young!); you see a lot of classic Holmesian elements (the disguise, the hapless police inspectors, the Baker Street Irregulars, the cocaine); and it shows you how Watson actually met Mary Morstan. There are, however... well, there are some facepalm-inducing racial issues with one of the villains (and that's not even getting into the treatment of the aforementioned Mormons), which is why I suggest reading an annotated version (I have the Klinger, haven't read the Baring-Gould) to offset the Wow, Victorians Were Offensive! And How! aspect of it.

Of course, The Hound of the Baskervilles is also a classic, but Holmes is offscreen (offpage?) for a bit of it. The Sign of the Four is more of an adventure (also, the movie seems to have borrowed a number of little things from this one), whereas The Hound is more of a slow-burning atmospheric suspense kind of thing. Also: less racist. Yay!

I feel the question coming on, so: if you just want some short stories to read, I would definitely recommend "A Scandal in Bohemia" (the Irene Adler story), "The Adventure of the Speckled Band" ("Terror! SHEER TERROR!"), "The Adventure of the Copper Beeches" (the Granada episode starred a young Natasha Richardson, IIRC), "The Naval Treaty," and "The Adventure of the Second Stain," although the more I look through the list of stories, the more I want to recommend, so I'll stop there. (Really, pretty much anything in that first collection is good.) I would highly avoid the last collection of stories, for reasons explained here ("JELLYFISH!!!"). Although, that is the entry I pulled the Epic Love excerpt from, so maybe you will want to read "The Three Garridebs," I don't know.

Back to the movie, I think I have figured out what the Significant Crow was about. See, that was the part that upset me, because the Significant Crow that followed Blackwood and his misdeeds around seemed to indicate that all the supernatural stuff was for real; that's why I was all like NOOOOOO THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DO IT WHYYYYYYY. But then, at the end [MASSIVE SPOILER], Blackwood gets ironically, "accidentally" hanged, Significant Crow is significant, etc. So what I think was actually going on was that Blackwood really was messing with things he either didn't understand or couldn't handle--if only by taking them in vain, as it were, and pretending to use them; maybe it was related to the "actual" secret society and its arcane powers--and the Significant Crow was following him around observing all this, as an emissary of Things He Should Not Have Messed With, and thus, at the end, was present for his judgment, and might have actually caused it. I mean, not that the crow literally messed with bridgey-whatever stuff, but that it was the embodiment of the powers that had been biding their time and were finally like, "Yeah, you're done now."

[livejournal.com profile] particle_person:

Heh, true, there was a bit of an implication there. By the way, I think the bird was a raven (which are close relatives of crows), because it was Tower Bridge, which is famous for its ravens.

The earliest known reference to a tower raven is a picture in the newspaper The Pictorial World in 1885. This and scattered subsequent references to the tower ravens, both literary and visual, which appear in the late nineteenth to early twentieth century place them near the monument commemorating those beheaded at the tower, popularly known as the “scaffold.” This strongly suggests that the ravens, which are notorious for gathering at gallows, were originally used to dramatize tales of imprisonment and execution at the tower told by the Yeomen Warders to tourists.

Yeah.

THE CROW KNOWS THAT, OKAY? THE CROW KNOWS.


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Date: 2010-01-03 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amaz0n-princess.livejournal.com
Ron is a HUGE Holmes fan- has been reading novels since his early teens. I read him snippets from your entry yesterday, and he's now excited about the film, and completely agrees with you about this:

I am simply saying that they are in love, love, looooooove. It is not for me to specify the nature of that love; I can only point to the GIGANTIC BLATANT ENORMITY of it.

Date: 2010-01-03 11:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
I just came back from seeing it again, and took my mother this time. We're in the car afterward, and she says--in the most positive way possible, let me assure you--"Were they supposed to be gay?"

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Date: 2010-01-03 06:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jjloa.livejournal.com
Last time I was in England (this summer - wedding on Husband's side) I finally went to the tower of london. Just to say I've been to the tower of London. (same reason I went to stonehenge. that is a hell of a lot of $ to pay to walk around some rocks you're not even allowed near, let me tell you)

The ravens there are probably some of the best kept and spoiled birds in the world. And rather cocky about it too ;) Which is why the raven appearing to me probably just went 'ha! tower bridge ravens legend!' vs 'ooh satanic evil crow'. Hadn't even thought about that.

I also am having to reread my giant compendium of Holmes stories. Which really, I think, shows how good the movie is - good enough that it drives me to reading. Not that much is needed to drive me to reading :)

Date: 2010-01-03 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hobbitomm.livejournal.com
Got to say, Stonehenge is very much a 'Is that it'. Avebury is a far better place to go ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury ) as (a) you can go up to the stones and (b) a Stone Circle complex so big you can build a village _inside_ it? What's not to like?.

In regard to the Holmes novels, iirc, those first 2 novels were when Watson's wound migrated!

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Date: 2010-01-03 06:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vega-ofthe-lyre.livejournal.com
I had pretty much the same interpretation of the crow - I think it makes for a juicier story if you look at it in that light. But then I am one of those YAY MORE SUPERNATURAL ELEMENTS PLEASE people, so.

Date: 2010-01-03 06:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xerinmichellex.livejournal.com
Ravens do represent death (bad omens in general) so I'm sure the raven/crow/whatever-black-bird-they-were-going-for was used as a symbol that someone was going to die. That's what I took from it, at least.

I've never read Sherlock Holmes before (hangs head in shame) but after checking out the annotated versions you linked to, they have gone on my wish list.

Date: 2010-01-04 06:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unicornluvr.livejournal.com
That's how I took it as well; not necessarily more significant than something the filmmakers put in as an omen that Someone Is Going To Die In The Next Scene (and it happened to work in well with the Tower bit, too).

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Date: 2010-01-03 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malsperanza.livejournal.com
the character of Sherlock Holmes is pretty fully realized from the first page, he's initially written as being a bit naive about anything not helpful to detecting, such as, you know, the fact that the sun is the center of the solar system (I am not making this up).

This is my very favorite Holmes quote. IIRC he says he deliberately forgets any info not of use to his purpose so as not to take up extra room in his brain. Watson makes it clear that he (and by extension all normal, rational scientific people) think this is just plain frelling bonkers. Holmes is a scientist, but a very crazy one; a monomaniac. Which is why he is so obsessed with Irene Adler and Moriarty--the only two people as smart as him (excepting the mysterious and even more insane Mycroft).

Holmes's monomania is both what makes him able to solve the crimes and completely incapable of carrying out a successful emotional relationship: He doesn't have room for one in his ... um, brain. However much he and Watson may feel for each other, it's a doomed, unbalanced friendship.

Date: 2010-01-03 06:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angiebatgirl.livejournal.com
I've never read any of the Holmes novels/stories. After I saw the movie, I decided I'd give them a shot and I found this on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553328255/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

I thought it was brand spankin' new but the Amazon page says 1986 *shrug* But you can't beat $10 :) I can't wait til it comes in. I want to read it before I see the movie again.

I just don't get the article about the threat to the future of the sequel (please no! need MORE!). Like, I get it, I just don't get it. RDJ never comes out and says that Holmes and Watson are getting down...It was a joke and the estate chick needs to lighten up. Holmes and Watson are like JD and Turk...or House and Wilson (ha!).

Date: 2010-01-03 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] particle-person.livejournal.com
By the way, the reason I know about the Tower ravens is because [livejournal.com profile] dduane used them as characters in her second time-traveling wizard cat novel...and she used a young Conan Doyle in the same book.

PS

Date: 2010-01-03 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malsperanza.livejournal.com
My favorite story is "Silver Blaze," I think.

I like your Crow retcon, but I think you're giving the movie more credit than it deserves. I think Ritchie just didn't care--the Crow was cool, and that's all there was to it. Unless, of course, it was an elaborate hommage to Jason Lee.

Date: 2010-01-03 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] modpixie.livejournal.com
I had kind of hoped that this here song would play over the closing credits:

Date: 2010-01-03 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwg.livejournal.com
I looove the Speckled Band! It was the first Holmes story I ever read, or saw on television. I was just a little kid, so I was freaked right out over the big reveal.

I like this interpretation of the Significant Crow. I'll confess to not giving it much thought during the movie other than, "unh, Lord Blackwood approacheth?" and then tied it to how crows are meant to be couriers of the dead, and since Blackwood was meant to be dead, it'd make sense that a crow followed him around everywhere and was biding its time until he was dead (for reals) and it could finish its task.

Date: 2010-01-03 07:20 pm (UTC)
ext_33795: (mmm books)
From: [identity profile] katharhino.livejournal.com
Um, me too. Speckled Band was randomly included in a non-Holmes collection of short stories for children I had, and it majorly freaked me out at the age of eight or nine. (Of all the Holmes stories to include...?) I thought I was going to die of sheer terror, myself.

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Date: 2010-01-03 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phanatic.livejournal.com
Have you read Shadows Over Baker Street?

Date: 2010-01-04 05:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] janetlin.livejournal.com
I love that collection. Holmes + Lovecraft = sheer brilliance.

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Date: 2010-01-03 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mycenae.livejournal.com
It doesn't stop dead in the middle for a huge third-person account of someone else's lovelorn Mormon revenge drama, of all things (special guest appearance by Evil Brigham Young!)

This intrigues me, because just yesterday a friend told me she was reading Verne's Around the World in 80 Days and randomly in the middle of the book one of the characters listens to a spiel by a Mormon missionary and then gets up and walks out. Was there some Victorian meme about mocking Mormons that I'm not getting?

Hm, maybe the Significant Crow was just a bit of movie misdirection, to give the audience more reason to suspect supernatural doings, but in the end it's just a raven on a bridge?

This movie was pretty much my first exposure to Holmes (aside from Data in the holodeck from TNG) but I'm definitely going to read at least one story now, although I'll probably end up imagining RDJ as Holmes while I read... which... not a bad thing, I guess!

Date: 2010-01-03 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] profbutters.livejournal.com
It was the whole theocracy thing. Utah wasn't a state: it was an alternative government. There were continual fears that they would amass an army and attack. Also, the polygamy thing freaked people out in a big way. Giving it up was a condition of Utah becoming a state.

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Date: 2010-01-03 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwaneeta.livejournal.com
At one point in the movie Holmes mutters about Blackwood (I'm hugely paraphrasing here) "You'd better hope all this [magic stuff] is [bullshit], Blackwood, because if it's real you're in a world of hurt."

That's a terrible paraphrase, I know. But what I'm driving at is the movie (and Holmes) are completely agnostic about ooga booga; but there's the sense that there may be something out there (crow! karma!) that Blackwood kens not the power of -- he's agnostic, too, remember. And the Raven of Ending is there to maybe hint that Blackwood courted his own death by employing those particular methods in his quest for world domination.

My take, fwiw.

Date: 2010-01-03 07:22 pm (UTC)
ext_3522: (Default)
From: [identity profile] minervasolo.livejournal.com
If anyone (including you) is looking for Holmes for commuting and other long journeys, the Sherlock Holmes society has radio plays to download (http://www.sherlock-holmes.org.uk/world/radio.php), including the Speckled Band and the one where Holmes fights the Klu Klux Klan. Because British racism and American racism were totes different, honest.

(ETA - having said that, the Brits really did freak out at the fact the US still had slavery for so long. Dickens was very "land of the free and the brave and the huh?")
Edited Date: 2010-01-03 07:25 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-01-03 07:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hobbitomm.livejournal.com
The Dancing Men.

And it's not precisely fighting the Klan, it's more someone being murdered because he _hadn't_ been involved with the Klan, and therefore didn't know the significance.

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Date: 2010-01-03 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] citharistria.livejournal.com
Not that it should affect the discussion, but the dark bird in the movie was a Crow, not a Raven. I amused myself by thinking that if a bunch of such birds showed up, it'd be a full murder of crows. Appropriate.

/nerdery



Date: 2010-01-03 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reabhecc.livejournal.com
Word. To all of it. Sorry I mis-read your earlier post (I have a bit of an issue with people constantly assuming affection = have sex!).

Significant Crow /is/ Significant! Hadn't thought of it that way, but I like your reasoning. And it probably was a raven; iirc, they used a raven in the movie The Crow because ravens, being more intelligent, can take direction.

Date: 2010-01-03 10:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
No, no! It was something a number of people brought up.

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Date: 2010-01-03 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jeffaplus.livejournal.com
First time commenting here but I just have to say that this entry contains some of my favorite quotes of yours possibly ever. Bromancing ftw.

That said, the lady from Doyle's estate needs to lighten the heck up. It was a joke, people, live with it. I really wish she hadn't said anything because now if they do end up making a sequel they'll probably feel the need to specifically point out that Holmes and Watson are just friends, and both of them has a female love interest on the side and blah de blah de blah, in order to keep Doyle's estate happy. Let me have my subtext without interfering, confound you!

(Never read a Holmes book yet, but this movie - and your entries - really made me want to. I think a stop to the library is in order...)

Date: 2010-01-03 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cherriesarered.livejournal.com
Hmm...of all the Holmes I've read so far (the first three novels, basically), I think that my favorite was The Hounds of the Baskervilles. I'm not sure if it was actually better-written, or if it was just a matter of personal preference (I liked the pacing and general style better).

Date: 2010-01-03 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laughingacademy.livejournal.com
I saw Sherlock Holmes yesterday, and as a lifelong fan of the books and the Granada series starring Jeremy Brett, I was relieved and pleasantly surprised. If they had to make Holmes a 21st-century action hero, at least they found a clever way of depicting it: behold, the Cerebral Bad-Ass!

Similarly, if they had to give Holmes a love interest, I'm glad they picked the most canonically appropriate candidate, Irene Adler, and made her his foil -- she's the Catwoman to his Batman.

I really, really liked this version of Watson. Kudos to the writers and to Jude Law for making the good doctor a rounded, competent character whose devotion to Holmes is deep but not fawning.

I'm not sure how I feel about the decision to disregard The Sign of Four and make Mary Morstan a stranger to Holmes with living parents, rather than a former client (mother long dead) who had hired Holmes to investigate a mystery connected to her father's disappearance. I loved the dinner engagement -- particularly "Take Watson" "I intend to", and her response to Holmes's insinuations -- and the hospital scene, but it could have been interesting to see a more canonical version of the Holmes/Watson/Morstan triangle. Hell, in Sign Holmes tells Watson, “I think she is one of the most charming young ladies I ever met and might have been most useful in such work as we have been doing.” Ah well. Perhaps twenty years from now, when it's time for yet another reinterpretation.

Speaking of reinterpretions, I've been saying for years that I want a film or TV adaptation of A Study in Scarlet in which we get to see 30-ish actors portraying Holmes and Watson as new roommates, with all the attendant awkwardness. I think it could be hilarious: "Has the post come?" "Yes, it's on the mantelpiece." "...Why is there a knife through it?"
Edited Date: 2010-01-03 08:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-01-04 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vivian-lake.livejournal.com
That's more or less how it played in Russian "Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson". Only both actors were a bit older than 30.

Date: 2010-01-03 08:23 pm (UTC)
msilverstar: (david street smile)
From: [personal profile] msilverstar
oh! oh! oh! The Red-Headed Men is great, it's a nearly perfect Holmes story where the weirdness turns out to have such an surprising explanation! Much better than evil!Mormans ;-)

Date: 2010-01-04 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eruvadhril.livejournal.com
What I love about the Red-Headed League is the way Holmes takes about five seconds to solve the case. I know this is not really extraordinary, but the circumstances make me laugh for some reason. *knock knock* *knock knock* "Sweet, mystery solved. VIOLIN TIEM NAO!"

Date: 2010-01-03 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] witchcat07.livejournal.com
Dang, you're making me want to drag out my battered copy of the complete Sherlock Holmes and start reading. So many books, so little time!

Date: 2010-01-03 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] everstar3.livejournal.com
At the end of the movie I was sitting in the audience muttering, "Roommate. He's my roommate. Roommate. Totally my roommate. In conclusion: roommate." I got several odd looks.

The whole super sekrit order puzzled me because I kept thinking, "Did they just not want to seem like they were ripping off the latest Dan Brown by actually making them Masons or what?" But I guess Golden Dawn makes more sense.

And I don't know if the crow was just following Blackwood around because the man served a good crow buffet or if it was a Harbinger of Things Unseen, but it was atmospheric.

Date: 2010-01-04 12:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lacrimaeveneris.livejournal.com
Ahahahahah. That first bit - I'm glad it wasn't just me.

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Date: 2010-01-03 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iamsmr.livejournal.com
"Blackwood really was messing with things he either didn't understand or couldn't handle--if only by taking them in vain, as it were, and pretending to use them; maybe it was related to the "actual" secret society and its arcane powers--and the Significant Crow was following him around observing all this, as an emissary of Things He Should Not Have Messed With, and thus, at the end, was present for his judgment, and might have actually caused it."

I really like this interpretation. It's like in [spoiler, I guess, for a 40-year-old novel?] The Last Battle (the last Narnia book), when Tash actually shows up and goes, "Hey, you summoned me, I'm here, WHAT" and the bad guy who's been taking Tash's name in vain the whole time just to intimidate everyone is like *meeble* and then Tash eats him. That was so awesome.

Ahem. Sorry. Big Narnia fan (preachiness and all...and actually, come to think of it, those books had their racist moments too).

My first reaction to the Doyle estate lady was, "Man, she needs to lighten up," but the truth is, I kind of understand where she's coming from. RDJ's comment wasn't about subtext or undertones. Making a movie where Holmes & Watson are actually gay- in a way, that's basically glorified fanfic, and I can see why that would be upsetting to the "owner" of the characters (granted, she didn't create them, so she doesn't really have the same emotional investment, but still, she's legally responsible for them. Also, she was probably just taking his joke too seriously, but that's a separate issue.)
(There's totally a Frodo-Sam joke in here and I can't find it...)

Date: 2010-01-04 04:22 am (UTC)
msilverstar: (billy-viggo kiss)
From: [personal profile] msilverstar
Well for one thing, Doyle's work is out of copyright (barely), so anyone can reappropriate and rework it at their pleasure.

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Date: 2010-01-03 10:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jwdmeow.livejournal.com
When I was at the Tower I was told that they had to take special care and leave out lots more food during the blitz to keep at least one raven at the Tower at all times (per the superstition about the monarchy and whatnot).

There really are ravens all over the damn place, so I just assumed significant!raven was there for local color. The supernatural element (red herring?) would have worked better if he had been more Malificent-y.

As for the movie, well. It was much more Holmesian (making up words right and left here) than I had expected from the previews. But I just never ended up liking it. I kept waiting for it to pull me in, and in the end it felt... dull. Which was so weird - I like Guy Ritchie, I like Robert Downey Jr., I like Rachel McAdams and I Love Mark Strong. I just felt that the plot never really kicked into high gear for me. Something off about the pacing of it. Oh, well. More excited for Iron Man 2 now...

Date: 2010-01-03 11:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] treehavn.livejournal.com
Amusingly (for me anyhow), the secret society scenes were filmed at Freemasons' Hall in London.

Date: 2010-01-04 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] everstar3.livejournal.com
I knew there was a Masonic air to the whole secret society!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] treehavn.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-01-04 04:17 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] unicornluvr.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-01-04 06:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
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