Wednesday night, internet actually working

[cleolinda]

Okay, a couple of quick things:

The other day, my writerly musings included the statement

The heroes start from the outskirts and work in, which is not how I should be doing it--I should know where they're going, even if nobody else on God's green earth does. Because that's my job as the creator.

After some discussion with edda, I kind of feel like I stated my case a bit too strongly there. It might be more accurate to say "which is not how I feel comfortable doing it." I actually reread Stephen King's On Writing today, and he talks a good bit about the element of surprising oneself in writing--and also the idea that you really might not necessarily know the answers to some things (both he and y'all bring up the example of Raymond Chandler completely forgetting to bother solving the crime that The Big Sleep is ostensibly about. Like, to the point where even he never bothered to figure out who the murderer was. And I still love how the whole point of Rebecca is that the new Mrs. DeWinter doesn't even get a first name--nor did Du Maurier bother to think of one. There are actually things I've decided I "won't know," or don't care to figure out, because I like the ambiguity better. I guess what I was trying to say is that if you're having trouble untangling your plots, if what you have isn't working for you, it might really help to sort out some fundamental elements. I don't know... it's one of those things that strikes me in retrospect as being very right for me but very wrong to state as a universal. So, you know, use it if it helps you, and if you enjoy surprising yourself to the very end, rock on.

And see, that's the thing. I don't plot obsessively from the word go. I actually come up with a character first most times--strangely enough, I either come up with a female protagonist right off the bat, or I come up with a male protagonist and rapidly become more interested in a related female character. Black Ribbon actually started out as West's story, and Dr. Munro would be That Guy He Goes to for Inventions, and Rose Hannah would be the Mad Scientist's Beautiful Daughter who wanted to know what West was up to and join in the fun. And as soon as I had that in place, I started gravitating towards Rose Hannah, although I decided that the story could be told from her (third-person) POV as well as West's--they alone could share perspective duties, in other words. So obviously The Thing That Happens to Her was not originally part of the plan. A lot of things weren't part of the plan. In fact, I only thought of a fairly shocking development at the end of the story in the last six months or so, long after I was into the Sorting Out My Plots phase, but it felt so right that I knew I had to do it. So in that giddy early phase of playing around with the characters like Barbie dolls in my head--and sometimes long afterwards--things happen, and a lot of them do surprise me. It's like planning a trip (I think I've used this metaphor before?)--at first you get to decide which countries you'd like to visit. That's the early, giddy part. You might surprise yourself with your decisions, or with what you can afford. So then you take that rough idea and start planning the trip, buying the tickets, mapping out the route. And even while you're mapping, you might find that waiting a day might save you money on a ticket, or there's a monument nearby that you'd really like to take a detour and visit. And even after you've started traveling, you might be on the road and see something you never expected, and stop to get out to see it. I'm not saying I'm against surprises, or that I plan the life out of things; I love detours, I love serendipity, and I always leave room for them. Maybe it's just really enjoy the mapping phase more than a lot of people do, and I'm more methodical about it than a lot of writers.

Also, I was going to ask for help with a plot point, but I did a little looking around and realized that the existence of the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway--which I have actually been on, now that I think about it, and have actually seen what I want to describe--means that I can very likely get away with a very steampunky development that I've been anxious about since the earliest days of writing the story.

I really should put up some linkspam, shouldn't I?

Television's 'Mr. Wizard' dies at 89. Awwww.

Woman dies in ER lobby as 911 refuses to help.

Eerie MySpace page may hold clues to murder.

Croc hunter's daughter meets Dalai Lama.

1800s weapon found embedded in whale's blubber. A living whale, mind you.

Brain mechanism explains sense of deja vu.

Ask A Cokehead: What's So Great About Cocaine Anyway? Surprisingly, this is not an article from The Onion.

We is twins lulz.

How long till coconuts?

More People Saying Stupid Things About Literary Blogs. There's a point Scalzi doesn't even mention, which is this: you can also have commenter discussion on a blog in a way you can't with, you know, newsprint.

Google privacy 'worst on the Web,' watchdog says.

Prison escapee who wanted to kidnap Letterman's son is captured.

TV's Top Writers Assess The Sopranos' Swan Song.

Jack McCoy finally promoted.

Dan Radcliffe Finishes West End Run in "Equus" and is probably preparing his bunker for the Potterdämmerung.

Cusack To Snyder: ‘I’m In’ For ‘Watchmen’ Role; Watchmen Still Wants Butler.

Weisz Stars In Jackson's Lovely Bones.

30-something stills of Keira Knightley in Atonement.

More Added to Daniel Craig's 'Flashbacks of a Fool.'

Kinnear and Tierney Join Baby Mama.

William Hurt Joins The Incredible Hulk.

Patrick Stewart's 'The Merchant of Venice' Still Moving Forward.

Crispin Glover Casts Spell Over Bijou Phillips In ‘Wizard of Gore.’

Time Magazine Previews Pixar's Next Three Films.

Warner Bros. Clarifies -- 'Thundercats' Will Be Animated.

Martin Campbell and Richard Price to remake 36 quai des orfevres.

Screen Gems Remaking The Big Chill.

1408 Passed On Bloody Roth; Stephen King Endorses '1408.'

trailer_spot: I Am Legend, Brave One, Hot Rod, Romulus My Father, Heartbreak Kid, DOA: Dead or Alive; American Gangster, Invasion, Shoot 'Em Up, Ten, Champion.

Three New Clips from 'Stardust' Online.

Miramax Passes On 'The Arcanum,' "a fictionalized take on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle leading a Super Friends style group of paranormal investigators called The Arcanum -- which includes Harry Houdini and the notorious voodoo priestess Marie Laveau as members." Wait, why haven't I read this yet?

Comments

[brermatt.livejournal.com]

I'm a HUGE fan of Raymond Chandler, for pacing, and ambiguous storytelling, and most of all for wonderful metaphors. His mysteries are always about the journey of solving the mystery, and not the mystery itself, which I think is great.

When I write, I too am light on plot. I write characters, but also mood - my writing style at the time seems to be burdened with mood that wants to be expressed, and that mood often becomes theme, and then theme then develops character and plot.

Not that I know what I'm doing or anything, but the outlining and stodginess just doesn't work for me.


That is all. I love reading your blogs and seeing your linkspam. Thanks for writing.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks--glad you enjoy it. : )

[it-grrl.livejournal.com]

for your future linkspams: Blog Like It's The End Of The World Day (http://myelvesaredifferent.blogspot.com/)
There's a lot of LJ'ers in on this, including myself,notwolf, and dearjohnnycash.

[particle-person.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't tell us how you're holding up in Alabama, Cleo, given that the zombies must be headed toward the Center of the Universe?

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

You know, I feel bad about this, but I just can't get into the zombie thing. It may be that I've got my head so into Black Ribbon at the moment that I just can't pull myself out of it.

[particle-person.livejournal.com]

So, you're saying BR ate your braaaains? 'sokay. (Actually, I think a lot of people skipped this one. Maybe Dave Barry needed to get involved.)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I think the real problem is that it didn't have enough lead-up. I didn't hear about it until a day or two ago, and it's not like Talk Like a Pirate Day, where even the most uninspired people can just go with "Arrrr, matey!" every other sentence. It actually involves a good bit of thought (What *would* it be like?) and creativity, since the one catchphrase zombies have ("BRAAAAAAAAINS") is the one you don't really get to use, because you're not the one who's the zombie; you're the one being attacked. I would have needed at least a month's advance notice to really think about it and get into it. So if they want to promote this next year, sometime in May would be a good time to start reminding people.

Also? It's not really as fun. I mean, zombies are fun, but what the world actually ending would be like, that's something I really don't like to think about too much. I know a lot of people who love that post-apocalyptic thing, but on the whole, it's probably a lot less popular than rum and wenches, as themes go.

[particle-person.livejournal.com]

The approach I took (and that most of the posts I saw took) treated the zombies as a sort of everyday pest, like roaches -- not something that was going to end the world tomorrow, really. Ursulav, for instance, took issue with her cat for dragging a zombie into the house. Edda's zombies were at the call center, etc. etc.

[particle-person.livejournal.com]

But yeah, pirates are more fun than zombies.

[yarha.livejournal.com]

S'ok. Talk Like a Pirate Day is more fun.

Besides, real life trumps weird internet holidays. Nobody asked *me* if I wanted these things, but I suppose nobody asked me if I wanted Christmas, either.

Yarha, Bah, Humpbug

[gannet-guts.livejournal.com]

1408 Passed On Bloody Roth; Stephen King Endorses '1408.'
Thank the lord, it's not a bloody story. Fucking creepy and horrorific doesn't always have to equal = GORE! and BLOOD!

existence of the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway-
Ok, this mention kinda creeped me out, I'm currently reading Heart Shaped Box and it mentions Lake Pontchartrain, and I remembered that 'coz it's such a cool word, and there you go, mentioning it in your journal. WEIRD.

Link

[amberdulen.livejournal.com]

Have you seen this (http://shocfix.livejournal.com/86805.html) Equus-related link?

[lady-ravenlocke.livejournal.com]

All I have to say pertains to On Writing. In a sentence, isn't it wonderful? Between it and Sin and Syntax, I've been very inspired and comforted as a writer.

[laurelin-kit.livejournal.com]

Screen Gems Remaking The Big Chill.

Do not want.

[barrelgoddess.livejournal.com]

Amen.

I saw that sentence and the first words out of my mouth were "No. No. Please, no."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!!! >_< Leave it alone, for the love of God. It's fine as it is. It doesn't need remaking.

[serizawa3000.livejournal.com]

I still like Stephen King, I just don't read his work much these days. I *did* have a copy of On Writing for a while. With what I've been working on (and for much of my writing in general) I started with ideas, and characters... Years ago I took some creative writing classes where the instructor (novelist Robert Bausch) emphasized character over plot. So... I maybe suffer a little in the plot department... I have been asked a few times "Have you done up a plot outline?" I have... but I dare say it's no guarantee that the end result will much resemble the outline.

I decided to do the first draft of my current project in longhand (in a thick hardcover notebook)... and I'm scribbling in the margins... stuff to add later when I start typing it up...

[redcoast.livejournal.com]

I have a theory that this ability to make up plots on the spot is related to how fast someone can write. Stephen King's books are basically the first envisionment of a story captured on paper - with the positives and negatives of that. Specifically, they're exhilerating but often don't really make sense.

Personally, I think his method produces hit-and-miss results, but the hits are really, really good. It's like splattering paint randomly on a canvas.

[megmatthews20.livejournal.com]

I really wish I knew where my copy of On Writing was. He has some great advice in there...I always tend to be plot oriented, so sometimes my characters suffer, but usually the plot is driven by who the characters are...so that's good I guess.

Also McAvoy and Knightley SQUEE! She always acts with the pretty pretty men...Knightley is awesome!

cheers

[edda.livejournal.com]

For the record, I didn't mean that as a criticism of your writing methods, just a commentary how now many different methods people have; it's not like either of is going to start beating the other with a stick for doing it wrong or anything. (And I know you know that wasn't a criticism, but I am rapidly becoming the type of absolute nelly who feels compelled to apologize for breathing everyone else's air, which is typically what happens to women in my family around this age, for reasons unknown.)

Stephen King's On Writing has this interesting statement he made, that for him it's not characters or even plot but the Artifact of the story that matters to him. And I know what he's saying, even if I couldn't distill the explanation any further. I guess it's basically what makes the story work for you in the first place. (And I love "artifact" anyway because it makes me have this mental image of uncovering some kind of huge avian fossil near a beach. I also get this lesser secondary image of some vaguely cruciform, roughly ornate bronze medallion, too. Sometimes having a literal imagination is fun.) In my last (and frankly, most recent by a loooooooooong time) short story, I had an idea of something secret happening, and the characters and the plot, which is pretty good if I do say so myself, all grew around it, including the plot twist near the climax. Next time? Who knows. (Assuming there is a next time, she said with a doomed, hollow laugh.)

And, oh God, from now on I'm going to have a third mental image as a story artifact being an ancient weapon found embedded in a dead whale, because frankly the thought of something that old rising up from the depths in the flesh of a very old creature...oooh, I'm giving myself goosebumps. *happyspooky*

[edda.livejournal.com]

And I should seriously stick a sock in it and go home now, but you know how certain things cluster in your memory/feelings, even though they have no apparent connection to one another? I'm going to give you a book recommendation, just for fun, because something about all the stuff I typed up there put me in mind of it: Max Lakeman and the Beautiful Stranger by Jon Cohen, which is out of print but a library should either have it or be able to borrow it (or you can z-shop it on Amazon). (Oh, wait, I do know why I thought of it: Max's wife's name is Nelly.) It's a really plesantly enchanting summer read and fairly quick, too. I imagine you'd like it.

OK, going home now.

[particle-person.livejournal.com]

Do you have a link to the discussion?

[yarha.livejournal.com]

The glory of teh intarwebs is that nobody need stick a sock in it.

Yarha, Banning All Socks Even as We 'Speak': Those Darn Socks

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

No, no! I thought you brought up a really good point that made me kind of look back and correct myself. I like discussion. : )

And you know, I've always thought it was so odd that he brought up the artifact/fossil thing, because uncovering fossils is always how I'd thought of it myself.

[yarha.livejournal.com]

Like slaving away in the Comedy mines? That was a good metaphor in m15m: Jurassic.

Perhaps they uncover plot-fossils sandwiched between uncompleted sillygisms?

Yarha, That's the Sound of the Men Working on the Mainframe: 'Dead' Metaphor

[reynardine.livejournal.com]

I really should put up some linkspam, shouldn't I?

While the linkspam is always entertaining, I have to say I really love when you write about writing. :-)

[rclementmoore.livejournal.com]

I have a character in my books who has no last name. I have no idea what it is. After three books now (only the first one (http://www.amazon.com/Prom-Dates-Hell-Rosemary-Clement-Moore/dp/0385734123/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2382027-9343646?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181832538&sr=8-1) is out), I think that anything I came up with now would be forced and probably disappointing.

My first two books were first conceived by where they would end up. In both cases, when I was about 2/3 through the novel, I jumped forward, wrote the ending, and then bridged the space. Though I knew where I was going, I needed to discover what was going to happen there, exactly, then go back and build the road to get there. Or in my case, go back and pack for the trip, so I have the right equipment when I get there.

This third book, which I'm finishing now, I came up with the idea of the journey first, with NO idea of the end destination. As a result, I have 550 pages of ms (the contract is for 300 pp) because all I did was wander around discovering things, because as long as I kept doing that, I wouldn't have to figure out the ending. It was like Tolkien, with less backstory told in song.

I infinitely prefer the first way. Probably because I'm not Tolkien or King or Chandler. But I have a friend who writes entirely in method B. Just kind of discovers the story as she goes along. And it works for her. Technically, I CAN do it that way, but it results in a TON more rewriting.

I love linkspan, but ditto what someone said above. I enjoy your ruminations on writing. And obviously, I'm not shy about sharing my thoughts.

[lauramcvey.livejournal.com]

The Merchant of Vegas
*insert hair-pulling here* a) Just because Baz Luhrman made a modern-day take on Shakespeare does not mean it's okay to start jumping on the bandwagon b) Just because Antonio and Bassarino kissed, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GAY. THAT'S WHAT MEN DID BACK THEN.

Ugh, McCoy. There was an episode a few years back where he blackmailed a gay teenager into pleading out, or he threatened to out her. I've hated him ever since. Not to mention he's the indirect cause of my favourite character's death.

[fox-gloves.livejournal.com]

I read "The Arcanum" back when it was called "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I kind of had that thought myself, but what the hell, I'll read it again.

[qwertytigger.livejournal.com]

I was wondering if you would mind including these in your next linkspam:

The Kitchen Madonna is a very nice lady who makes and sells these adorable retro syle aprons so that she can stay home with her handcapped son. They're just too cute!

http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5094136

Console Classix is a legal way to play the old video games that you played when you were a kid. If you miss your old Atari 2600, Nintendo Etertainment System, SEGA Genesis, or Gameboy games, go there and wallow in nostalgia...

http://www.ConsoleClassix.com

[ironclad1609.livejournal.com]

I am getting really excited about the Watchman project, having read the comic just recently. I'd love Cusack as Nite Owl, not sure about Keanu Reeves as Manhattan though. Also not sure where Butler might fit in: Comedian? Rorschach?

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

What I've heard previously is that they had a smaller part in mind for Butler, so--possibly the Comedian? As opposed to a major lead, I mean.

[lauthe.livejournal.com]

I actually come up with a character first most times

That's always how it happens with me. And sometimes I have these great, interesting, well-fleshed-out characters...who have absolutely nothing to do. And when I finally get a plot worked out, I still spend too much time on dialogue and character development, remembering every so often that, oh, right, stuff has to happen.

Mr. Wizard! Bummer.

[beckyh2112.livejournal.com]

*double-takes at the mention of the Causeway*

Sorry, not used to the local roads getting mentioned on blogs I read. *grins* If you don't feel it's a spoilerific answer, what are you thinking to do based on it existing?

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I'll say it anyway, since it's going to get mentioned fairly early on in the new version: a bridge from England to France. Apparently the existing Chunnel is something like 31 miles, whereas Pontchartrain is 23ish? Handwave in some steampunk technology, and I think Pontchartrain makes a Channel bridge at least somewhat believable in a semi-fantasy setting. You know, as opposed to if the longest bridge in the world was 30 miles and the Channel was *500* miles wide.

[lightning-bugv.livejournal.com]

Yep, yep, and that's very "ooh, shiny", too. I like world details.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I'm just terrified that I've made some really obvious glaring mistake or it's completely stupid, and people are going to jump all over me when I put it in there. Because I really do love the idea of it, and a key scene near the end takes place there. But it's funny, because I was trying to think of a similar bridge, and then I looked up "longest bridges in the world," and it was like, "Hey, wait, I've been ON that!"

[newsong.livejournal.com]

Have you heard about this guy? http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/319367_timeguy12.html?source=mypi

It's not your usual linkspam, but pretty neat all the same.