Straight and narrow

[cleolinda]

God, I got angry with my mother today. I was having lunch with her, and we started talking about a relative who's questioning his/her sexuality (I'm being vague only so as not to give the relative's identity away). My mother's always said she would love members of her family regardless of their sexual orientation. She's a youthful, sharp, energetic businesswoman, a conservative who's disillusioned with Dubya. But the conversation got more and more heated until she finally said, "Look, if that's the way that [s/he] wants to live their life, fine. When we all have to go before God and account for every action in our lives and all the gays are struck down--and they will be struck down--that's up to their conscience." And that's when I realized that she had meant, "I will love people in my family in spite of their sexual orientations."

All I could say was, "I'm not going to argue this with you right now."

All I could think was, You know, that's a pretty hypocritical stance for someone who doesn't go to church but watches the daily "Will & Grace" reruns religiously.

I love my mother; we're really close. But I think I'm come to understand the difference between an argument and a discussion--to take a line from the_ferrett, you can't have a rational discussion if one or both parties has already decided that she's right. I like discussion. I hate arguments. And I've really come to think that gay rights is the civil rights issue of our generation. I'll discuss it with you, but I'm not arguing anymore.

"And they will be struck down." Jesus.

Comments

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

?? You lost me up there.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Which part?

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what your mom's opinion is and all that.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Her opinion is, apparently, that homosexuality is an abomination and that gays will be "struck down" on Judgment Day. Or something.

[aigooism.livejournal.com]

... Oh I see. Bleh. Whatever. Let her think that way.

[brassyn.livejournal.com]

Ouch.
That's a big ouch.

While I do see your point - because there would have been a futility in arguing it - I'd still have countered it pretty severely. Don't think I personally could have let that one lie.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was thisclose to shrieking "YOU ARE SUCH A HYPOCRITE!," but she was leaving for work in 15 minutes and I didn't see how freaking out on her that red hot second was going to change her mind. I did manage to say, very calmly, "You know the Bible also says it's an abomination to eat shrimp and get divorced, and you've done both, right?"

[acerbitydivine.livejournal.com]

Or, perhaps try the .. "judge not, lest ye be judged" line as well. It's been a favorite of mine for those christians who decide that they know better than God. (sorry for lurking about, i've been seeing your journal all over the place and got curious.. hope you dont mind)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

i've been seeing your journal all over the place

Huh. Anywhere interesting?

Oh, and feel free to lurk around. S'what it's here for. :)

[acerbitydivine.livejournal.com]

On the reviewers, and on someone's page who had been pretty reamed by the reviewers. I got curious after they sent me a link, and popped over to discover that I was not brave? enough to subject myself to such scrutiny.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Ah. Yeah, they're pretty harsh. Still, I got some new friends out of it, so all's well that ends well.

[acerbitydivine.livejournal.com]

True, I guess. Glad you can keep that sort of attitude, I never could. Mind if I add you as a friend?

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Go for it. :)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Seriously. And I think that's why I was so angry afterwards--not because of what she'd said, but because of what I hadn't.

[kungfumegadevil.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but what could you have said?

Christian doctrine is against homosexuality, and Christians believe that this doctrine has the endorsement of God. You can't argue against God. You can't argue that the doctrine is being misinterpreted, because it's been interpreted the same way for quite a long time. You might be able to argue that the doctrine is fallible, but such a discussion would attack a person's identity as a Christian, and do you really want to attack your mother's identity?

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I was left there with not much else to say but "I think you and your beliefs suck." And the worst part is, I'm really close to my mother and we have a really good relationship. This would so seem to her as if it came out of nowhere.

[kungfumegadevil.livejournal.com]

You don't have to attack her beliefs. But you don't have to hide your own, either. She's not going to assume that you've been tricked by the Devil if you go to a Pride parade; she'll probably wonder what you're seeing that she isn't, just as you're wondering about her right now.

I mean, that's what Jesus would do (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kungfumegadevil/9757.html), I guess.

[edda.livejournal.com]

I can understand your frustration. Next time I'd say something,but that's me. Can o' worms on special, aisle two!

This is only shakily related, but I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" I couldn't decide if it was being flaunted by a disillusioned right wing Christian or a pissed off liberal. Sort of brought me up short trying to figure it out.

[claire-redfield.livejournal.com]

It says in the Bible rather adamently that homosexuals aren't.... the most welcome people on the face of the Earth...

But then again, humans who are prejudice against them aren't God, so what right do they have to say anything?

I'm still wavering. If that makes sense. I can't describe what I mean, without sounding more like an ass than I already do.

And I'm tired and hopped up on violent thoughts. Excuse me. *goes to write about death and destruction*

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

It says in the Bible rather adamently that homosexuals aren't.... the most welcome people on the face of the Earth...

I'll admit, it does say that. (Where is that, Leviticus? I always forget.) I think that's why this argument always frustrates me, because that's an unimpeachable line of logic: "I believe in the Bible, and the Bible says this." I can't argue with that.

My problem, as a Christian, is that the Bible says a lot of things. It'll say we shouldn't eat this or that, or cut our hair this way, or work on Sunday, and none of us seem to bother paying attention to that. And God's word might be divine, but he used imperfect mortals as conduits. How do I know that everything in the Bible is something God wanted in there? I mean, we can't even keep our congressmen from sneaking extra clauses into the bills they're trying to pass. Maybe that sounds crazy. All flippancy aside, it is tough to know when to have faith and when to ask questions.

After a lot of thinking--reading Mere Christianity helped a little--I've come down to this: There is a God. That God is, as the book says, love. And in that spirit I should do unto others as I'd have done to me. And in that spirit, I have a hard time looking at my friend C. and saying, "You're going to hell for being in love and wanting to marry another man." That's all I know.

[la-sonnambula.livejournal.com]

And God's word might be divine, but he used imperfect mortals as conduits.

That's the reason why I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

[bluewasabi.livejournal.com]

Good point. Also keep in mind that the New Testament was written fifty years after Jesus died, and was "peer edited" by Paul, who never met Jesus and only converted after he was kicked in the head by a mule. I'm just sayin'.

Keep in mind, too that the Bible was also translated from ancient Hebrew to Aramaic to English by a bunch of Monk interns, and anyone who's ever used babelfish knows that a lot can get lost in translation. So whenever anyone starts running around saying how they're a fundamentalist and obey the strict phrasing of the Bible, I always choke back the urge to say, "Oh, so you know ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, then?"

What gets my sacred goat about the whole argument, though, is that, really, who cares who other people sleep with, or get married to? It's not like homosexuality is contagious or something.

Straight Guy: Gee, I can get the same exact health benefits if I marry a guy? I guess I'll have to switch teams.