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Dec. 17th, 2004 04:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cleolindaToday's horoscope (my.yahoo.com):
Quickie: Sometimes all you see is black and white. But this is more of a rainbow day.
Overview: Drama (and possibly melodrama) could very well be on your agenda. At the very least, you can expect secrets, intrigue and whispered conversations. Don't be mad. At least one of those conversations could lead to a delightful encounter.
Say what?
So. House of Leaves. Discuss.
I ended up reading all night, pretty much until five am, and finished the last 150 pages today. (They go pretty quickly, because they're mostly appendices.) Once you really get into the breakdown of "Exploration #4," yeah, it gets creepy. But I never really found myself... scared. I think I found myself too involved in the specific characters--I never felt any of this could actually happen to me. I mean, the doors on my hall didn't start giving me weird looks or anything. And I really ended up liking Tom, and I hated what happened to him, in the way that a satisfying tragedy upsets you.
I did like the way the book kept throwing all these possible clues at you ("It's a door to another dimension! The house was built by aliens! It's haunted! They're crazy! It's a hoax!") and then batting them back down. At the end, the house just is what it is.
The weirdest thing I kept noticing was the random connections between characters that were never explained. Zampanò has claw marks on his floor, too; Daisy and Johnny's mother both have a prized Spanish doll; Karen and Johnny's mother both practice their smiles in a mirror. There are tons of random things like that--to the part where I kept getting confused and started wondering if so-and-so was secretly related to so-and-so. Like Daisy had come into possession of the mother's doll. Or if Karen was Johnny's mother, although by the end of the book--not to mention the timeline--that's clearly impossible.) And let's not even go into the fact that Navidson is reading House of Leaves, the book Johnny has annotated for you to read, which Johnny also finds in the possession of a band at a bar--before he's finished it, with his name on it. I don't even know what to make of that.
I could have done with less Johnny Truant, by the way. I mean, I appreciate that his drugs-n-strippers exploits are a refreshing counterpoint to the constant footnotes (and the footnotes to the footnotes), but... I mean, there's a point where I get tired of his rambling. And I got really annoyed with the way he kept saying, "Then I was torn to pieces and I died. Okay, I totally didn't. Then I killed this guy. Okay, I totally didn't. Then I carried this girl off and raped and killed her. Okay, I totally didn't..." Like, five times in one paragraph. I mean, given what you find out about his mother, I understand that the boy's a little crazy, but... GAH. And I didn't really know what to make of the end of the Johnny text--the story about "Dr. Norrell" and the baby and all that. I mean, I know Johnny has mother issues, but... what? And his timeline was so garbled that I couldn't really tell where the story left him at the end, except that we know he's alive, because the "Editors" are still in contact with him.
I think the book interested me most on a technical level--Danielewski does several things with the footnotes and the translations and the search for the translations that I'd like to try. [Initially I talked here about some things I'd like to do with a story, but... I think I might should keep that quiet and let it surprise you when I finish it.]
Anyway. House of Leaves. Have y'all found out anything about it, or seen something that I'm just not seeing on a first reading (there will be a second)?
(Wikipedia: "What's very interesting is when different levels of reality interact with each other. The most obvious is how Zampanò is believed to have been violently killed, presumably by the minotaur, which then haunts Johnny. At one point in Zampanò's criticism he refers to himself in first person as being in the Navidson house. Another well-known part is where Johnny's mother, in the one of the letters she sends him from the asylum, includes a coded message addressed to Zampanò. There is also the similarities between Johnny's revelations about losing his mother, and the original partial release of the Navidson documentary, the seven minute hallway [sic]." Ooooooookay.)
And yeah, the Dionaea House site has a lot in common with House of Leaves--but what I find to be interesting is that HOL focuses on the treachery of the house within itself, while the Dionaea house is a predator able to reach outside itself and lure people back. As far as I can tell, once you're outside the Navidson house, you're safe.
Quickie: Sometimes all you see is black and white. But this is more of a rainbow day.
Overview: Drama (and possibly melodrama) could very well be on your agenda. At the very least, you can expect secrets, intrigue and whispered conversations. Don't be mad. At least one of those conversations could lead to a delightful encounter.
Say what?
So. House of Leaves. Discuss.
I ended up reading all night, pretty much until five am, and finished the last 150 pages today. (They go pretty quickly, because they're mostly appendices.) Once you really get into the breakdown of "Exploration #4," yeah, it gets creepy. But I never really found myself... scared. I think I found myself too involved in the specific characters--I never felt any of this could actually happen to me. I mean, the doors on my hall didn't start giving me weird looks or anything. And I really ended up liking Tom, and I hated what happened to him, in the way that a satisfying tragedy upsets you.
I did like the way the book kept throwing all these possible clues at you ("It's a door to another dimension! The house was built by aliens! It's haunted! They're crazy! It's a hoax!") and then batting them back down. At the end, the house just is what it is.
The weirdest thing I kept noticing was the random connections between characters that were never explained. Zampanò has claw marks on his floor, too; Daisy and Johnny's mother both have a prized Spanish doll; Karen and Johnny's mother both practice their smiles in a mirror. There are tons of random things like that--to the part where I kept getting confused and started wondering if so-and-so was secretly related to so-and-so. Like Daisy had come into possession of the mother's doll. Or if Karen was Johnny's mother, although by the end of the book--not to mention the timeline--that's clearly impossible.) And let's not even go into the fact that Navidson is reading House of Leaves, the book Johnny has annotated for you to read, which Johnny also finds in the possession of a band at a bar--before he's finished it, with his name on it. I don't even know what to make of that.
I could have done with less Johnny Truant, by the way. I mean, I appreciate that his drugs-n-strippers exploits are a refreshing counterpoint to the constant footnotes (and the footnotes to the footnotes), but... I mean, there's a point where I get tired of his rambling. And I got really annoyed with the way he kept saying, "Then I was torn to pieces and I died. Okay, I totally didn't. Then I killed this guy. Okay, I totally didn't. Then I carried this girl off and raped and killed her. Okay, I totally didn't..." Like, five times in one paragraph. I mean, given what you find out about his mother, I understand that the boy's a little crazy, but... GAH. And I didn't really know what to make of the end of the Johnny text--the story about "Dr. Norrell" and the baby and all that. I mean, I know Johnny has mother issues, but... what? And his timeline was so garbled that I couldn't really tell where the story left him at the end, except that we know he's alive, because the "Editors" are still in contact with him.
I think the book interested me most on a technical level--Danielewski does several things with the footnotes and the translations and the search for the translations that I'd like to try. [Initially I talked here about some things I'd like to do with a story, but... I think I might should keep that quiet and let it surprise you when I finish it.]
Anyway. House of Leaves. Have y'all found out anything about it, or seen something that I'm just not seeing on a first reading (there will be a second)?
(Wikipedia: "What's very interesting is when different levels of reality interact with each other. The most obvious is how Zampanò is believed to have been violently killed, presumably by the minotaur, which then haunts Johnny. At one point in Zampanò's criticism he refers to himself in first person as being in the Navidson house. Another well-known part is where Johnny's mother, in the one of the letters she sends him from the asylum, includes a coded message addressed to Zampanò. There is also the similarities between Johnny's revelations about losing his mother, and the original partial release of the Navidson documentary, the seven minute hallway [sic]." Ooooooookay.)
And yeah, the Dionaea House site has a lot in common with House of Leaves--but what I find to be interesting is that HOL focuses on the treachery of the house within itself, while the Dionaea house is a predator able to reach outside itself and lure people back. As far as I can tell, once you're outside the Navidson house, you're safe.
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no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 02:34 pm (UTC)And yet I'm wandering off to look for it.
Why do I do these things?
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 02:35 pm (UTC)Here's mine--> Quickie: "You can't have everything you want. Prioritize. And be willing to wait a while."
Does Yahoo have any idea what an impatient person I am?
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 02:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 02:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:00 pm (UTC)I really liked the book- I was satisfied with the Navidson's ending, and I liked Tom, too. I agree that Johnny's ending was kinda...eh. It was hard to tell what was going on (which is fine, as the whole book was kinda like that), but it just didn't really need to be. At least the part about him listening to the band didn't. MZD could've left it with Johnny at his mom's asylum, and that might've been better.
This book didn't scare me in the Argh-my-room-is-expanding-and-cold sense, but it DID put me in a terribly weird state of mind. It made me question my identity in a way I hadn't ever before. It helped that Navidson survived the whole experience, because I really identified with him...it's weird how the whole thing was really almost a love story between him and Karen.
Okay, that's enough rambling for now. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:26 pm (UTC)The rest struck me as pretentious meta-fiction which seemed like the author was straining to add depth with contrived "enigmatic" ramblings. I think if one is going to ask a reader to slog through hundreds of pages of semi-incoherent hints, there should be a payoff, but Truant's story just peters out into uninteresting madness. There was one bit where the patterns in all the narrative threads echoed each other in a creepy way, but not enought to justify all the babble. The rest just seemed like a really good haunted house story being interrupted by a thesis paper on post-modern anti-narrative theory.
Did ya notice the book has 5 framing devices?
It tells the story of the house
1. as recounted in a film
2. described in a book
3. partially destroyed by the author who hints at his story in footnotes
4. reconstructed by a guy who tells his story in footnotes
5. with additional material provided by the publishers.
I mean Pale Fire had only two frames and Nabakov won the big prizes.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:31 pm (UTC)If you are thinking of using such things in your work the key thing is keep them motivated and relevant. Subtext for subtext sake seems onanistic.
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Date: 2004-12-17 07:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 07:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 09:30 pm (UTC)As far as my theory goes...
I guess I just got to the point where the nightmares of minotaurs and labyrinths, the paralyzing phobia of darkness, and my psychosomatic problems became too much for me to bear, and I HAD TO quit doing so much exhaustive research or I was going to go mad. I thank my lucky stars that those problems didn't stay with me after I finished the book.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:24 pm (UTC)I got to a point with this book (which I read for a class, which helped so, SO much) that I just had to use that explanation just to get the damn thing out of my mind and on with my summer. Silly schoolwork following me out of school.
That said, I saw this post and... well...
I think that’s enough for now.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 10:44 pm (UTC)(I loooove that icon, too! That was one of my favorite parts of the book!)
::rereading HoL::
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 04:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 04:48 pm (UTC)http://www.themodernword.com/borges/Flak%20Magazine-Danielewski.html
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:42 pm (UTC)In doing that, I managed to terrify myself. I think I find it scary, because there is no explanation. It's all down to imagination in the end and I can think of worse things than the book even hints at, as can most readers. But, as I say, only if you ignore the excruciating footnotes.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:45 pm (UTC)I read the book a couple weeks ago, and I'm still thinking about it all the time. I totally need to re-read it because I know I missed so much stuff, unfortunately I'm under deadline to finish something else for a book club.
One little thing I really love about the book: like the house, the book is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. Specifically, the cover is 5/16" smaller. Nifty :D
OH, and the creepiest part? The colonial area documents where you turn the page and the first thing you read is "there are ftairs!" jeebus that scared the shit out of me for some dumb reason.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 03:57 pm (UTC)i didn't think too much about some of the stuff you were discussing about the characters and the way they relate to one another and such, i think this is one of the few books that i actually managed to read without constantly trying to figure out what was going on.
and i only got creeped out the one time. towards the beginning when he was describing the feeling of something being behind him and his inability to turn around and look. that part got to me.
have you heard poe's haunted (http://www.bordersstores.com/search/title_detail.jsp?id=54605705&srchTerms=poe&mediaType=2&srchType=Author) cd? she's mark z. danielewski's sister and the album is supposed to be sort of a soundtrack to the book. in some respects it really works.
now i feel the need to go and read the book again i think.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 04:46 pm (UTC)If you can, thanks! if not, that's cool too!
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Date: 2004-12-17 06:43 pm (UTC)Oh well. I really only bought it to understand Poe's "Haunted" cd. Stupid reason, but whatever.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 08:05 pm (UTC)notcleverly disguised in white text. Sigh.no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 03:34 am (UTC)Ally, It's going to be a mild struggle today to remain serious, especially in the face of enticing social circumstances. I'm not saying that you should avoid all fun, but it will probably be obvious that you won't be able to cut loose as much as you'd wish. Don't stress about a missed party. Be happy and the fun will follow wherever you are.
OT
Date: 2004-12-17 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-17 10:54 pm (UTC)Apparently I form a surly minority. Oh, well.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:26 pm (UTC)The blue font for “house” could represent hyperlinks. There’s definitely an aspect to the book that seems to mirror the way wandering around the internet leads you weird places and back to places. Also, on page 518 just before the premie baby story the phrase “what I’m remembering now” is in strikeout. If you go to the very front of the book, below the copyright information is a list of the different editions. In the full color edition this line would appear in purple ink, like a visited hyperlink. (Anything referring to the minotaur appears in red. I think that back in the day red used to be the active link color (if you clicked on a link and held the mouse button down). Does anybody remember if this true?)
I'm not sure if I buy this theory completely, but it's interesting...
no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 06:23 am (UTC)And the book sounds (eh? Can you say that in LJ?) interesting! I think I'll go out and look for it.
Namarïe,
~Sáthien
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 03:08 pm (UTC)Pfitz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312169647/qid=1103411221/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0816987-5284925?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 06:08 pm (UTC)Alas, I've ordered 'Hero with a Thousand Faces', having realized as much as I know about J. Campbell, I've never read it. Bah.
Still haven't gotten to Dylan's Chronicles, yet it lays about the house..somewhere, softly calling. I'm expecting messages on my answering machine 'Why haven't you read me, yet? I'm getting pissed'.
Yarha, Guilty of Anthropomophizing and Whatnot.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 06:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-18 07:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-19 01:18 pm (UTC)I dunno. Eventually I'll try to push myself through the rest of it, but I just haven't found it as compelling as most people. And so far, it hasn't been scary at all.
no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 01:35 pm (UTC)I don't think anyone mentioned it here, but I came away with the feeling that the book is all made up inside Johnny's head. I mean, it's obvious he has a mental problem, probably schizophrenia. He sees things - first when he's almost attacked by something in the tattoo shop - and then people and events crisscross. Like someone mentioned, how Karen and Johnn's mother both practiced their smiles before a mirror.
Really, the story's about loss. Zampano loses his family, Johnny losses his father and then his mother, Karen and Navidson almost lose each other ... I think the house represents Johnny himself. I mean, the house acts like a living entity. It grows, shifts shape according to people's emotions, and is incredibly complex. And then there's the monster lurking in the shadows. I still think of the spiral staircase as a vertebrae leading up to Johnny's head. This guy's obviously got a lot of dark wounds going on inside of him.
I mean, it's obvious Johnny manipulates the viewer, because he's manipulating the story. He admits to it early on when he says he added a word or two to one of Zampano's paragraphs. There are also several instances when "Zampano" is writing about the documentary and uses "pisces" ("... was ripped to pisces") or when Tom, trapped in the house and talking to the camera, makes a joke about Birds of Paradise (the joke Johnny made in the bar at the beginning of the book with Lude to impress some girls).
Final food for thought (just for now, as there's so much going on in this book): Navidson has to go into the house because his curiosity and sense of exploration compels him to do so, and he pays for his curiosity by getting frostbite and losing (besides I think an arm and other injuries) his eye. Odin drank from the Well of Wisdom and paid for that by losing his eye.
Odin. NavIDsON. I'm sure you can figure that out.
Happy reading!
no subject
Date: 2005-01-07 01:38 pm (UTC)