(no subject)

[cleolinda]

Anyone up for a scavenger hunt?

I'm having a slight, friendly Grammar Pirate dispute over here, and I'm curious. I want to see if anyone can bring me a link to a dictionary/reference that lists "wail" with the meaning "to thrash, to strike severely," etc. Every single source I have looked at puts that meaning under "whale" and not under "wail." I even went to www.onelook.com and didn't find anything. Am I crazy, or is there some source that does give that meaning for "wail," which is, somehow, the spelling people tend to use?

Comments

[musikologie.livejournal.com]

I've never seen the "to strike" definition used in a way other than "whale". "Wail" connotates the sound (usually loud and long). "Whale" means the motion, and the striking.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

I'm saying! For some reason I see it as "He wailed on that dude" a lot, though. My position is that it's correctly spelled "whale," yeah.

[bibliotech.livejournal.com]

...I always thought it was wail. All of my teachers/professors have used 'wail'.

Oh, no. I might melt in a puddle of wrongness...

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

See, that's why I'm asking. It seems to be the popular usage, and this guy is arguing with me, and I'm trying to figure out what sources he's seeing "wail" in, other than "just other people on message boards."

[ashesofautumn.livejournal.com]

Uh. Oxford Abridged doesn't have 'to thrash' etc. as one of the definitions of wail.

[ashesofautumn.livejournal.com]

you know, I've never actually heard anyone use the word wail/whale to mean 'to strike severely' or anything like that.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

You're correct. It's whale and they're just using the wrong word.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

See, that's what I'm thinking, but this guy emails me out of the blue to say, "You used 'whale' and it's 'wail.'" I politely quoted a dictionary link to him. Then he's like, "Oh, well, the place I looked said both." Which is not what he said initially, because why bother emailing me if both are correct? I pointed out that the dictionaries I checked don't even say that "wail" can EVER be used. He's all like, "Well, the reference I used says both." (Which is... what?) I'm just trying to make sure I'm not crazy.

[dragonflyknight.livejournal.com]

I always thought that use was spelled Wail too, though I thought that was more of a slang usage. I dunno, there should be slang dictionaries around, check those.

[ex-krazycat651.livejournal.com]

couldn't find anything like that under "wail" in the books I have here, at least.

I'm gunna go Cetacean on your ass!

[kvschwartz.livejournal.com]

I always assumed it was spelled "to wail", but according to http://dictionary.reference.com/ it's "to whale".

Re: I'm gunna go Cetacean on your ass!

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Heeeeeee. "Cetacean on your ass." I am totally stealing that.

[pellmelody.livejournal.com]

Maybe an "old English" spelling?

WALE

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wale

Noun 1.wale - a raised mark on the skin (as produced by the blow of a whip); characteristic of many allergic reactions
weal, welt, wheal
harm, hurt, injury, trauma - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc.

[kookaburra1701.livejournal.com]

I'd always seen it as "weal", but p'raps that's from a different era.

[malinaldarose.livejournal.com]

whale to hit, thrash, or beat soundly. [1780-90; orig. uncert.]

Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, 1996

[jennilee.livejournal.com]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wail&r=f


It's correct in the urbandictionary - as slang. Probably not what you are looking for though. I doubt you will find a proper dictionary listing it.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Okay, so this guy has at least *one* reference on his side. The only other slang reference I found for "wail" was "to sing well."

[mayhemwench.livejournal.com]

It's definitely "to whale." I'm guessing this came from the same place that "web sights," stormy "whether," and other such homonym mix-ups came from.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The origin of the dispute is that some guy emails *me* to correct *my* usage ("whale"), and I was trying to figure out where he was getting "wail" from.

[lacrimaeveneris.livejournal.com]

I'm with jennilee. It's a slang that's become general usage (the way "friend me" is now grammatically correct, at least on Livejournal). Besides, it is derived from wheal (weal) in Old English so... I rest my case with...

You're both right.

[tropes.livejournal.com]

I've only ever seen whale, but it may be that it's caught in transition right now. Eventually, the wrong usage may become the right one. :)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you do see that happen--like with "they" becoming a singular unisex pronoun, for lack of a better one. In fact, I learned it as "whale" but I see it as "wail" so much that I have to check the dictionary every single time before I use it.

[allichaton.livejournal.com]

I've got access to the OED online through my university. And there's no definition under "wail" like that. What I did find:

wale, v. To mark (the flesh) with wales or weals.
wale, n. The mark or ridge raised on the flesh by the blow of a rod, lash, or the like

whale, v. To beat, flog, thrash.

So either of those could probably be used in the context, but not wail. Which is odd, because that's how I've always seen it. But if it's not in the OED, I think it's fairly safe to say you're right. ;)

[priceyeah.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to believe the books on this one. If many people use "wail," they're still wrong. (I was agnostic on it before looking it up. I find something subjectively wrong about "whale" too -- but I'm deferring to the tomes here.)

A similar example: I've seen countless instances of "whoa" being spelled "woah," particularly on LJ. Now, in a few years or decades, maybe "woah" will take over -- but for now, it's wrong. Same deal with "wail."

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah--and I have to give the guy credit, "wail" is the popular usage. The problem is, he isn't even using that as an argument--he's saying he actually saw it in some reference. And "woah" drives me absolutely up the wall. But then, I'm a childhood spelling bee veteran/survivor, and so I tend to get super-squirrelly about orthography.

[chibineko.livejournal.com]

My New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary describes wailing as complaining or screaming (okay, so I've paraphrased), and whaling as beating severely, or defeating thoroughly. It's a transitive verb.

I wouldn't have known that, necessarily.

(And it's so nice to know that there are other grammarfreaks out there.)

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Hee. See, I figured a lot of people would think I was being a total freak about this, but I know enough people on my friends list dig the finer points of spelling and grammar enough that they might get a kick out of it.

[vodou-chile.livejournal.com]

You're right on this one.
I have to confess that I also use the spelling "wail", but every dictionary I looked in says that "whale" is correct for that definition.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Seriously, it's to the point where "wail" is starting to look right to me. I wouldn't be surprised to see the meaning added in a few years.

[edda.livejournal.com]

I tend to go with the "English is evolving as we speak" crowd. ANd I swear I think I've seen 'wail' used acceptably in the sense you mean, though very rarely. I'd err on the sife of caution for the time being and go with 'whale' which I know (and has been proved above) is the standard spelling.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The problem is that I get this email that's like, "You used 'whale' and you're wrong, it's 'wail.'" I quoted a dictionary link to him, and then he backpedals and says, "Oh, I saw both words with that meaning." So why'd you email me in the first place? And he kept insisting that he saw some reference where both were correct, and I started wondering. I personally would not correct anyone who used "wail," but I started to wonder where he was getting it from.

[bingodoggy.livejournal.com]

I can't think of where you might find such a definition for "wail." Personally, were I ever to use such a phrase, I would use "whale." In fact, I think I've seen it in a book at some point. Someone whaled on someone, or was whaling on someone. I forget.

to raise marks on the skin as if by whip

[(Anonymous)]

Are you looking for the word "wale"? I really enjoy your writing and this seems in context for your stories. Cords in fabric are referred to as wales and probably have this as the source. Check dictionary.com

[vivian-shaw.livejournal.com]

To "wail" is to cry or lament. To "whale" is either to go a-huntin' of the whale, or to beat the shit out of some unlucky bastard.

"Wale" connotes the width of the nap in corduroy.

[cleolinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was pretty much my position. :)

[gniko.livejournal.com]

Not that it's been said 23 times before or anything - I know it as "to whale (on)."

He wailed as she whaled on him. (go pronouns)

But I only ever see it as some sort of slang usage anyway, the use of the word whale that way, like "He just whaled on that guy!" and I bet it's thought to be "wail" cause why would you use a word for an obese sea mammal as a verb? ;)

[kittygopounce.livejournal.com]

How odd. If I were to use either word with the meaning "to thrash", it'd be whale. Perhaps it's to do with the reading material I've looked at that potentially isn't widely available in America? However, I would comprehend if someone said to me "I'm going to wail you". Except, I think it's almost two different words with the same meaning. Wail appears to be an Americanism, and you seem to say (from what I understand - and that's limited) "I'm gonna wail on you". But, older British-origin books I've read use whale to mean beating something/one.

Anyway The Budget Macquarie Dictionary says:

Whale [weil] v 1 to whip, thrash, or beat soundly. 2 to throw oneself into something energetically. 3 a to beat up, bash. b to attack verbally, to berate. [origin uncertain, possible varations: wale].

It doesn't give a meaning of "wail" as to thrash. Hope that helps :)

[purplepaisley.livejournal.com]

I was hoping to muddy the waters further by adding a third spelling, but I can't quite do it. Here's what my favourite dictionary says:

whale(2) v.tr. esp. N. Amer. informal beat, thrash [var. of WALE]

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary 2001

[kyranjaye.livejournal.com]

pardon excessive geekery (as opposed to the regular kind?)

according to my Webster's, "wale" is the oldest version of the word-with-that-sound, originating in the 12th century as a noun (ie, weal/welt), and appeared as a trans. verb in the 15th cen. "whale", with the meaning of "to thrash", is first recorded in 1790. Webster's does not have a definition of "wail" that would be appropriate, but that particular spelling first appeared in the 14th century.

Therefore, my take is that it's language drift continuing: probably a variant pronunciation "wale" to "whale", given shifts of language type and a certain lack of standardized spelling before dictionaries came out. And "wail" will probably assume the definition after a while. But at the moment, it's still technically incorrect.

(or I may just be sleep-deprived and getting incoherent. never know. ;)