cleolinda: (twilight lolcat)
[personal profile] cleolinda
I don't have much to say, but I figure I ought to check in and say it anyway. I've had an energy drain of a sinus cold this week, plus I'm trying to get some reading done. Mostly I'm trying to read up on vampire lore from a historical perspective--i.e., what someone living before 1900 would have known, culturally speaking. I'm about to attempt a reading of Varney the Vampire, which ranges from something like 160+ chapters to 223 chapters, depending on which version you tackle. (I'm sorry, but nothing should ever have 223 chapters. Nothing. Ever. Ever. Everrrrr.) But I and my love of trashy 1800s sensation lit cannot resist something with passages like,

With a sudden rush that could not be foreseen—with a strange howling cry that was enough to awaken terror in every breast, the figure seized the long tresses of her hair, and twining them round his bony hands he held her to the bed. Then she screamed—Heaven granted her then power to scream. Shriek followed shriek in rapid succession. The bed-clothes fell in a heap by the side of the bed—she was dragged by her long silken hair completely on to it again. Her beautifully rounded limbs quivered with the agony of her soul. The glassy, horrible eyes of the figure ran over that angelic form with a hideous satisfaction—horrible profanation. He drags her head to the bed's edge. He forces it back by the long hair still entwined in his grasp. With a plunge he seizes her neck in his fang-like teeth—a gush of blood, and a hideous sucking noise follows. The girl has swooned, and the vampyre is at his hideous repast!

For those of you more recently joining us, I've been working on a Victorian vampire series (eight books, it looks like) since 2003--yes, six and a half years now, and don't think I don't smack myself every single day of the week for letting the bandwagon leave me in the dust. I just keep telling myself that, if I can finish the damn thing, maybe people will be tired of the Chastity Vampire trend and they'll be ready for something else (she said, even as True Blood is already very much the opposite of the Chastity Vampire, SHUT UP, OKAY, IT'S WHAT I HAVE TO TELL MYSELF TO GET BY) and it'll actually benefit me to show up in a post-Twilight market. I don't know. But this is why I can't read anything written in, oh, say, the last forty or fifty years. I read a lot of Anne Rice as a teenager, and I made an exception for the Sookie Stackhouse series because I got sucked into the show (and I was comfortably sure that modern-day Louisiana vampires were plenty different from my thing), and I made an exception for Twilight because obviously Twilight does not count (yes, that was a burn), but... no matter how many other things people recommend to me, I don't feel like it's good for me to read them at this time. I set down my own world-building vampire mythology a long time ago, but I'm still working out the finer points of vampire "science" (or at least vampire logic), and being off in my own little writerly backwater has helped me develop the story on my own. I'm mostly afraid that I'm going to read current vampire lit and go, "Oh, shit, [whoever] got to that idea first, now I'm going to look like a copycat asshole," or, more broadly, "Oh my God, everything I have ever thought has already been done." Both of these are probably true. It's just that I don't need to know it. It's like walking a high wire: don't look down.

(Part of the reason I check in with an update on the novel-writing process every now and then is that I want it here, on the internet, dated, in writing, that I am working on this, so that if something similar happens to coincidentally come out, you'll know that I've been here working on my own thing all this time.)

So I'm immersing myself in pre-1900 and pre-Rice vampire lit, because Anne Rice was a huge popular turning point in the way audiences viewed vampires--maybe not the first writer to make the vampire a hero, but the one who really set the stage for a large number of writers to follow (my critical reading is telling me). The vampire was at His Hideous Repast before that. I'd like to go back to that. I have a number of different angles I'm taking along that line, but I'm afraid to say much more, given how long it's taking me to write this. Mostly it's taking me so long because life keeps getting in the way, as it does, as well as my own writerly anxiety. I've come to view the delay as necessary--commenting on and writing about and deconstructing Twilight over the last two years has been really instructive, honestly--not just in terms of how not to do it, but in terms of looking at why it does appeal to people and what does work, because clearly something does, and how to possibly use those dread powers for good. I have theories on that as well, and while I've mentioned them before, I should probably not expound on that at this time.

A lot of what's dragging me down is that I am not good with the spatial concept of geography--I can't drive, after all, so I don't have a very good sense of how big places are or how long it takes to get from one place to another. And then you have the potential hubris of writing about a place you've never been to. I've done a lot of research on the Victorian era--like a lot of people, I've been into it since my early teens--but in more of a closeup detail sense. Fortunately, I now have someone who knows Victorian London very well and can Britpick for me--which presents the new anxiety of, "Oh dear God, I'm going to write this and hand it to her and then she's going to be forced to tell me how very stupid I am." Yay.

Another thing that's slowing me down is--would you understand what I meant if I said the story is a lot like Harry Potter? Because it's not like Harry Potter at all, it's not about wizards or a school or even people under the age of twenty. It's not one year per book, either. But it's similar in the sense that things actually happen, as opposed to Twilight, where the emotions are the plot; it's similar in that it's got a large cast of characters and a central mission/mystery and major antagonists and a lot of clues and foreshadowing to work out. So you kind of have to map out the entire series up front--at least the general direction of the second half. So the whole writing process has been front-loaded with plottiness and "This is great and all but what do these characters actually want that they would be doing all this, what's their agenda, what's the end game?" Where am I going with this, and how am I going to get there? And what about the stories of all these side characters, how do they fit in--do they fit in?

Because, really, it's the characters that keep me going at this point. You see all these vampire books and movies and TV shows coming out and saturating the market, and you start to get really, really depressed. They've already done everything there is to do, and even if they haven't, your audience won't care by the time you show up. But I've been living with these characters for nearly seven years now, and I keep telling myself that I'm doing this to tell their stories, and if people like the series, it'll be for their sake, not because I did or did not reinvent the wheel.

And I can also use vampire research in general for the second Movies in Fifteen Minutes e-book. So. That's where we are right now.


ETA: Varney the Sparklepire, as it were.


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Date: 2010-02-05 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] glenvorian.livejournal.com
223? Is that person crazy? O_o

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annemjw.livejournal.com
That is an epic quote. I feel like fanfiction should be more like that, actually.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] glenvorian.livejournal.com
True facts!

Varney the Sparklepire, as it were

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Re: Varney the Sparklepire, as it were

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Re: Varney the Sparklepire, as it were

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sunni-sideup.livejournal.com
You know, I never knew that Black Ribbon was a vampire Victorian project. I was excited when I just thought it was a steampunkian, intricately plotted mystery novel. Now I'm even more curious.

But I think that angle, how it's essentially a plot-driven story, will really work in your favor. I personally love reading books like that, but there are so few of them nowadays. I can't plan plot at all, so I have major respect for writers who dedicate themselves to that.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
Yeah, I was kind of trying to obscure that plot point when originally talking about it, but in trying to come up with a one-sentence summary pitch, I've had to go ahead and mention it. I mean, it's revealed pretty early on, and we're at a point in the market where "vampires" would be a primary selling point.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beachlass.livejournal.com
You know, even if I didn't already like your writing, just listening to you talk about the books, and your process makes me want to read them.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-findel.livejournal.com
If one day -- when you've finished the black ribbon books and they are available for me to read -- you fancy reading other books about vampires again, I would recommend 'The Historian' by Elizabeth Kostova. You could read it now, if you wanted to, because I think it is sufficiently far from Victorian era vampirism. It's a book about Dracula, but it is also so much more. Carefully and splendidly written, definitely worth your time.

Don't worry too much about the oversaturated vampire market... I think most of the readers of the blog will buy your books! I will!

Date: 2010-02-05 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] glenvorian.livejournal.com
I love the Historian! I cannot wait for a film on the book.

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deadwoodmt.livejournal.com
Cleo, I want to read your book(s) SO HARD. You do not even know. I am bad at waiting. :(

Date: 2010-02-05 04:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nicolars.livejournal.com
You know, I think there's always a market for vampire novels -- they've almost become a separate genre, like romances or police procedurals. So I wouldn't worry overly much about the vampire trend having passed you by by the time you are ready to publish.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
Yeah, there's a big, constant market for paranormal romance and urban horror/fantasy, for example. It's one of those things where there will always be some kind of market, even if the book's not a breakaway hit or something (which is statistically rare anyway). Someone will publish it, even if it just ends up being me self-publishing on Lulu again.

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-jackalope.livejournal.com
Er, um, did that quote change tenses in the text, or was that a transcription error? Cause if it was the first, I think I'm a little in love.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
I'm pretty sure that's the text as it is, because I've seen it quoted two different places that way. Isn't it fantastic?

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cmdr-zoom.livejournal.com
Yes, it's hard writing a book with a plot, where things actually happen, that isn't just about the Sue-vatar being protected from vague menace by Perfect Broody Sparklepants while trying to get into same (CAN I HAZ TEH SEX NAO PLZ?)... but the tradeoff is that at the end, you will have something that will be good, and which you can be proud of.

Sympathies and support from a hobby-writer, whatever they may be worth.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vivian-lake.livejournal.com
"Sue-vatar" makes me think about Eru!Sue, and that's just wrong.

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greedyskunk.livejournal.com
Varney the Vampire sounds like a delightfully cracky book! Love the tense changes in the passage you quoted. I also have an image of Jim Varney as Ernest being the vampire, so lots of lulz there.

Your posts about Black Ribbon really, REALLY make me want to read the series. *sending you good writerly thoughts*

Date: 2010-02-05 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] litlover12.livejournal.com
Oh, you beat me to the "Varney" thing. :-) I thought I was the only one.

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mellymell.livejournal.com
I'm right there with you, but my series has only grown to 3 books so far and I only just started in November. And yes, it's also vampires (but not Victorian). And yes, I too am constantly slapping myself in the face for a) writing about vampires when the market is annoyingly saturated and b) going into this knowing that it's highly likely that most everything I might want to do with vampire lore has already been done.

My main concern when starting was to have an engaging plot and introducing it right away. My biggest fear (as a housewife/mother writing vampire fiction) is being compared to SMeyer and so I too have used my "experience" with Twilight as a DO NOT WANT scenario.

I also know what you mean about feeling obligated to your characters, now that they're out of your head, to tell their stories. I kind of look at it as it being my story and I'm telling it because I have to get it out. So what if no one else likes it (although it sure would be nice to get paid for it too).

Date: 2010-02-05 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greyduck.livejournal.com
Reinventing the wheel is overrated. You know what I want, that I haven't enjoyed in too, too long from current fantasy authors? A nice, old-fashioned, heroic, follow-the-bauble adventure yarn. Oh, no, we have to get all post-modern, or overly grim-and-gritty, or some other approach designed to "bring fantasy storytelling into the new millennium," whatever that means. I mean, the Joe Ambercrombie "First Law" books, are they very well made? Hell yes. But are they a good fantasy epic adventure yarn? Hell no! (Especially since the only main character who comes out of the trilogy even remotely "heroic" is the most miserable, misbegotten, twisted bastard of the lot.)

So I don't want my wheel reinvented. I just want a reliable wheel what'll get my cart from home to market and back again. I'll even take a retread as long as the workmanship is solid and there's a reasonable warranty, you know?

Er. Sorry, I seem to have gotten rant all over your writerly speculative post. I'll grab some paper towels...

Date: 2010-02-05 08:32 pm (UTC)
elbales: (Keyboard of LOLZ)
From: [personal profile] elbales
Myee hee hee, YOUR ICON. ♥

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] robinmc.livejournal.com
I read the chapters you had online a while ago, and I really got into it. So, I don't care when the project finally sees the light of day, I'll be there to buy it.

Date: 2010-02-05 06:48 pm (UTC)
ext_33795: (mmm books)
From: [identity profile] katharhino.livejournal.com
Yes, me too! That was one of the reasons I friended Cleo, actually. So I would know if she ever wrote any more of it. And I love character-driven plotty stuff anyway – I don't even particularly care about vampires one way or the other. But fantasy adventure + awesome characters = me buying it.

PS Cleo – that quote is incredible. I don't really understand how she was on the bed, then on it again. But it doesn't matter. There were quivering limbs and strange howls.

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Date: 2010-02-05 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flamecurls.livejournal.com
I always love hearing that you're working on Black Ribbon! And hey, vampires will be popular forever, they're just trendy now.

Personally, I think 'vampires with plot' would be a novel concept for a lot of vampire readers today... might be just what they're looking for by the time Back Ribbon makes it to shelves.

Date: 2010-02-05 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elfin-miss.livejournal.com
Oh god I wants to reads it... just so long as you don't do the ever aggravating plot twist of OMG HE (or she) IS A VAMPIRE. They always make me go "Well, duh. It says so on the back cover and that person was way to mysterious/pale/good-looking to begin with."

Date: 2010-02-05 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tekalynn.livejournal.com
I have never been able to read the title "Varney the Vampire" without hearing Weird Al's "Harvey the Wonder Hamster" going through my head. ("Varney, VAAAAR-NEY, Varney the Wonder VAM-PIIRE!")

I wish I could find the hysterical MST someone made of the first three chapters back in the 90s. ("Who is she, the president of the Crystal Gayle hair fan club?")

Date: 2010-02-05 05:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwg.livejournal.com
Oh, I had no idea that you were writing about Victorian vampires. Like an above commenter, I thought it was going to be some kind of historical mystery, possibly with a plucky girl detective.

The thing about the vampire genre is, there's a pretty solid die-hard fan base where if you have a book (or serial) that features fangs, they will read it. And during the Great Vampire Booms of the last decade or so (I remember there was another vampsplosion when Buffy was at its height), and the market gets saturated...it's not so much that people are so over it when something new shows up, it's more that they're probably fussy. There's so much samey/cloning going on, readers are more likely to latch onto something that's new and interesting, and added bonus if it's well written. I know that I, and a few of my friends, are patiently waiting for the Twilight phenomenon to pass so we can get back to His Hideous Repast and getting monsters that are genuinely monstrous and skin-crawly because they're scary when they're watching teenage girls sleep.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the wagon leaving you in the dust. As long as you're not writing an Anita Blake clone with a heroine that's got a sexy love octagon with a sparkly wereunicorn vampire...well, no, that would probably sell really well, as there's a solid fan base for that sort of thing, too.

Date: 2010-02-05 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
Heh. Yeah, no. I would like to sit here and say what it's actually about, but due to my slowness, I'm afraid someone else would run off and write it first. I'll get into it once the book is safely in print (if ever).

Date: 2010-02-05 05:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] agentclaudia.livejournal.com
As someone who has been hugely into vampires for the past decade completely regardless of whether they were "in" or "out" at any given time, and who is also ridiculously in love with nineteenth century British sensation fiction (and pulpy old Brit lit in general), I really really want to read your series now.

I also really want to read Varney the Vampyre, which I've been kinda sorta intending on reading for like six years. But I have to finish The Mysteries of Udolpho first, which, being technically really-late-eighteenth-century pulpy British fiction, is like a million times denser and slower than the nineteenth-century stuff; I'm like a third of the way through it and nobody's gotten locked up yet, so I'm all like GET TO THE DAMN PLOT ALREADY ANNE RADCLIFFE SO I CAN WANT TO KEEP READING otherwise I'm just going to reread The Monk where shit actually happens. D: D: D: D: D:

Date: 2010-02-05 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] readykatego.livejournal.com
I work for a literary agency and am pretty up on the trends right now/what editors are looking for (especially as they apply to YA) - if you'd like some advice or suggestions about how to target yourself towards the market, I'd be happy to help.

Date: 2010-02-05 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
Thanks! It's definitely not YA, though. YA is a great category--I honestly feel like some of the most exciting work is in that genre right now, and I thought to myself, you know, if the content happened to be appropriate for a YA audience, we could classify it that way just because, as sometimes happens. And then I remembered the prostitutes and the sex scene and went... no, not so much.

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Date: 2010-02-05 05:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maudelynn.livejournal.com
I am on Chapter 8 (if you include the prologue as a chapter.) It is WONDERFULLY OOGY!!! Flora is a delight and HENRY... well, it makes me feel like my book is JUST AS IT SHOULD BE in tone and manner so far. Yippeeeeee!!
Did you ever watch the 90's dark shadows on HULU.com? I keep forgetting to ask you.

Date: 2010-02-05 05:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cleolinda.livejournal.com
Oh, EXCELLENT.

I keep meaning to! I've had so much to do that I'm having a hard time sitting down and doing things I just *want* to do.

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Date: 2010-02-05 05:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rotynd.livejournal.com
I would just like to say: 1) Harry Potter-esque in terms of cast size, plot, and riddles, antagonists and funtimes, but with moar vampires. 2) Set in Victorian times. 3) You're this invested in the characters. And 4) written by Cleolinda.

I am physically excited about this series now. I mean, I've been mostly lurking, and I've seen you mention it, but this is the most I've seen in one place. My heart is all a-patter. I foresee a series into which I can throw myself with true fannish devotion, equal perhaps to the abandon with which I embrace HP. And that's terrible wonderful.

Date: 2010-02-05 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angelikfire.livejournal.com
My feelings exactly. I'm not even big on vampires, but hell, this sounds awesome. Count me in.

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Date: 2010-02-05 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icepearls.livejournal.com
Well I for one can promise you to buy your book/books when they [finally] hit the market :) They certainly sound interesting to me and it sounds awesome with vampires and a plot of action :D
Also what are fans for, after all? ;)

Date: 2010-02-05 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xerinmichellex.livejournal.com
I wouldn't worry too much about missing the "bandwagon." The vampires popular today are all in high school and fall in love with the plain Jane, mortal girl, and from the chapters you've posted, The Black Ribbon is anything but that.

Besides, at the end of the day, is about telling a great story. I say forget about the vampire craze you might miss out on and focus on telling the story you want to tell.

Date: 2010-02-05 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] faeriemaiden.livejournal.com
Oh dear, I hear you entirely too well re. trying to write about Victorian London with having a bad sense of space. I'm only just learning to drive -- will driving help with that? I certainly hope so. I am writing vampires in Edwardian London and then the Great War, and it's just... SO MUCH RESEARCH. I mean, I love it, but... I have to research everything. I was stuck for hours on a tiny scene because I needed to understand doorbell ettiquette with a combination of large apartment and which family member would answer the door and what sort of doorbells they had... good grief. Plus it is surprisingly really hard to find solid information about the Edwardian era especially, I am finding, where details/social mores/domesticity is concerned -- half the time they talk about the Victorians, mention that things got different, then rush right over to the War and rations and women working. (I also have a very underwhelming library system, + no money, so that doesn't really help much.)

Plus I have to get a really good understanding of international politics that exploded into WWI! And social mores and the burgeoning women's rights movement and what people were reading and the social/economic/racial makeup of London! Also opium! *headdesk* It's a good thing I love this story so damn much.

(My story is only two books, but it was originally only one book, so I am slightly worried. Especially because I find three a very rounded and complete number, and am therefore convinced that there must be a third book lurking around the corner somewhere.)

No-one has EVER done all there is to do: which is the beautiful thing about stories. Really, one can even say old things if you dress them up in new clothes, and even then you get another unique facet of the idea, the whole. I think even completely rubbish writers are saying something that nobody else has quite said, only their lack of skill or communication or clarity or whatever it is that made their story not work keeps them from saying it in... the way that reaches people? Uh, losing my metaphor here. But I think you know what I'm saying? I'm really fond of stories that don't necessary turn a trope on its head or subvert it or mock it, but just look at things that have been written about before and sort of examine them, poke around various corners of them and say "what if?" and "how?".

Also, I happen to love and adore vampire fiction, but have thus far found approximately five books about vampires that actually worked for me in the wash of 'yay pretty vampire boy/girl let us angst' nonsense (...says the girl who loves Buffy and is quite enjoying the ridiculous adorableness that is The Vampire Diaries...uhhhh). Plus, every time you mention The Black Ribbon my vampires + history storykinks start wibbling madly. So for me the market will never, ever be exhausted. :D
Edited Date: 2010-02-05 06:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-02-05 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aficat.livejournal.com
Try wanting to finish a fantasy book that will be shelved *next to Twilight*, thanks to your last name. I've abandoned it for now, just on principle (and I haven't thought of an awesome pen name). Does anyone go to the King section for anyone other than Stephen?
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